Forum: Share your SI/NOR language.

NoR and SI wording for relay racing?

Jaakko Haataja
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • Umpire In Training
  • National Judge
Does anyone have any suggestions for suitable NoR or SI wording for relay racing?
Created: 21-Aug-06 03:06

Comments

Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
0
What is relay racing?
And why does it need documentation
Created: 21-Aug-06 03:15
Jaakko Haataja
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • Umpire In Training
  • National Judge
0
Relay racing is a racing format in which boats are racing in teams one after another. The next competitor is allowed to start when the previous one finnishes and the position of the team is defined by their last finnished boat. This of course demands many changes to RRS.
Created: 21-Aug-06 04:36
Markus Schwendtner
Nationality: Greece
Certifications:
  • International Measurer
  • International Technical Delegate
  • International Judge
  • International Race Officer
0
It will be difficult to just do it by NoR/SI. Have a look at the rules for the mixed team relay format that was intended for kiteboarding in Paris 2024. There is a World Sailing RRS appendix for it.
There are quite a number of definition changes (i.e. starting, finishing, racing) that cannot be changed via NoR/SI.

Here is the link: https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/APPENDIXFR210311-[27173].pdf

Note: many changes are due to Appendix F - kiteboard racing rules and will not apply to boats. Applicable rules for boats would be new 23.3, changed 28, new 30.3.

The real difficulty is the required changes to the definitions.
Created: 21-Aug-06 08:17
Jaakko Haataja
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • Umpire In Training
  • National Judge
0
Thank you! Am I allowed to change the Appendix? Most of the rules are unsuitable for boat racing. Even some definitions, for example Tack, Starboard or Port, would be unsuitable.
Created: 21-Aug-06 14:45
Markus Schwendtner
Nationality: Greece
Certifications:
  • International Measurer
  • International Technical Delegate
  • International Judge
  • International Race Officer
0
Hi,

no you cannot change that... most of the changes are the normal changes for the kiteboarding appendix (Appendix F, similar to Appendix B for the special windsurfing rules).

Basically you need three changes to definitions (which cannot be made without world sailing approval) and the 3 rule changes listed above (which you could make though the NoR/SI).

If you find a way to work around the definition issue... then the rest should be fine via NoR/SI

I guess it all depends on how "informal" the racing is... ?
Created: 21-Aug-06 15:16
P
Benjamin Harding
Certifications:
  • International Judge
  • National Judge
  • Club Judge
  • Judge In Training
0
Created: 21-Aug-06 15:22
Markus Schwendtner
Nationality: Greece
Certifications:
  • International Measurer
  • International Technical Delegate
  • International Judge
  • International Race Officer
0
Kind of... it is missing the definitions (when is a team racing, when is a competitor racing, when is each team member starting and finishing) and some other stuff. And as per the preambel, it needs WS approval to change those things...
Created: 21-Aug-06 15:49
Jaakko Haataja
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • Umpire In Training
  • National Judge
0
This i what I had written in the NoR draft (translation from Finnish), Optistart is a fleet racing event on Sunday:
4.1 The event is open for every team formed by two or three boats of Optimist class
4.3 Boats enter the event as individuals. At registration, the a boat shall announce the team in which she will sail.
4.6 Every entered boat shall also enter Optistart competition.
7.1 The event consists of relay and fleet racing. Races sailed on Saturday will be relay races and races sailed on Sunday will be fleet races.
13.1 Scoring system is as follows: In relay racing, every team of three boats with every boat finished, and every team of two boats with another boat finished one time and another boat two times, will be given points for every race according to the table of rule RRS A4 so that the position of the team is defined by the third finishing boat. If a boat has broken a rule in the relay racing, the possible penalty affecting her score will be given to the whole team. The same applies if the boat is given redress or if she retires. In fleet racing, the team shall be given points according to the table of rule RRS A4 so that the position of the team is defined by the average of the points given to its boats in the Optistart competition. For else, Appendix A applies. This changes rules RRS 30.2, 30.3, 30.4, A3, A5.1 and A5.2.
13.2 The words "boat" are replaced by words "team" in rules RRS A2.1, A6, A8 and A9. Rule RRS A2.2 does not apply.
13.3 In relay racing, rule RRS A7 is changed as follows: " If the third finishing boats of teams are tied at the finishing line, the points for the place for which the teams have tied and for the place(s) immediately below shall be added together and divided equally."

And SI draft, Karpin viesti is the name of the event:
1.2 ...In fleet racing, the Notice of Race and Sailing instructions of Optistart competition apply.
1.3 The following items are added in rule RRS 41: ... in relay racing "(f) help from another boat on her team provided electronic communication is not used; (g) any help from anyone when she's not in sailing turn."
11.1 Rule SI 11 applies only in relay racing.
11.2 A boat is in sailing turn from the time when the previous boat in sailing turn finishes until she's no more racing. The first boat in sailing turn is in her sailing turn from her preparatory signal. A boat is preparing for her sailing turn from the moment when the boat in sailing turn previously to her starts according to rule SI 11.6 until that boat finishes.
11.3 At registration, every team shall announce the starting order of boats in each race. One boat shall not be in sailing turn two times consecutively. 
11.4 Boats that are neither in sailing turn or preparing for sailing turn, shall avoid the starting area when boats are racing.
11.5 Rule RRS 45 does not apply for a boat not in sailing turn. This changes rule RRS 45.
11.6 A boat shall start when she's in sailing turn. Race committee will give one sound signal when the sailing turn of any boat begins. If a boat is in sailing turn two times, it shall start on both the sailing turns.
11.7 If rule RRS 30.1, 30.2, 30.3 or 30.4 applies, it applies to any boat when she's preparing for her sailing turn. However, for the first boat in sailing turn, it applies one minute before her starting signal. This changes rules RRS 30.1, 30.2, 30.3 and 30.4.
11.8  When at the starting signal any part of the hull of any boat that is first in sailing turn is on the course side of the starting line or she must comply with rule 30.1, the race committee shall signal an individual recall according to rule RRS 29.1 if rule RRS 29.2, 30.3 or 30.4 does not apply. If, at the beginning of the starting turn of any boat any part of her hull is on the course side of the starting line, or she must comply with rule 30.1, the race committee shall signal an individual recall according to rule 29.1 if rule 30.3 or 30.4 does not apply. This rule does not apply before the starting signal. This changes rule RRS 29.1.
11.9 A boat that is not in sailing turn shall avoid a boat in sailing turn in another team, if it is reasonably possible.
11.10 A boat that is not in sailing turn shall avoid other course area than starting area if reasonably possible.
12.1 In fleet racing, a team shall not use tactics, the goal of which is to interfere with another boat for better success of the team in Karpin viesti competition.
16 ... In relay racing, Target time and Race Time Limit apply to the time between the starting signal and the finishing of the third finishing boat of the first team.

The problem with this is that it's quite complicated and I don't know if it leaves loopholes or changes rules that cannot be changed.
Created: 21-Aug-06 16:04
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
I would suggest utilizing rule 86.3 and writing an experimental relay racing appendix that encompasses all of the changes you want to make.  You can pull in whatever is useful from the other relay racing documents mentioned previously.  It will simplify your NOR and SI and keeps things where they belong.  I think the application process is quite simple although the link in the rule book is broken.  Go to https://www.ussailing.org/competition/rules-officiating/racing-rules/experimental-rules/.
Created: 21-Aug-06 16:13
Jaakko Haataja
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • Umpire In Training
  • National Judge
0
Those are US national prescriptions and don't apply in Finland. The Finnish national prescription: " In accordance with RRS 86.3 the FSBF prescribes, that the restrictions in RRS 86.1 do not apply in the events where test rules proposed by World Sailing are being used. No additional approval by the FSBF for individual events is required." So I would need a proposal from World Sailing.
Created: 21-Aug-06 16:20
John Christman
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • National Judge
  • National Umpire
0
Sorry, I should have looked more carefully at where you are from.  Given that prescription, how would someone from Finland, such as you, test rules they come up with in a local event?  I would be tempted to just do it and ask for forgiveness later if someone complains.  I think I would still write an appendix to keep the NOR and SI simpler and not have to put the rule changes in both documents, just a reference to your appendix.  This is what I proposed for a slalom race event we had here a few years ago.
Created: 21-Aug-06 16:40
Jaakko Haataja
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • Umpire In Training
  • National Judge
0
I don't think there is any way to test rules in Finland. At least I have never seen that. There are almost no local events in Finland, almost all the events are at least regional. This is because there are not enough sailors for local events. Also, most sailors are from Helsinki or Espoo so there aren't that much regional events either. Most events here are national. I also think this is the only relay racing event in Finland.
Created: 21-Aug-06 17:00
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Jaakko, how large of an event is this?  How many “teams” would you expect?
Created: 21-Aug-07 03:21
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Jaakko, FWIW, I read through your NoR and SI’s and I didn’t see any inappropriate changes to items which can’t be changed.  So, if the “system” works for you, I think it looks good.   

You might add that awards will not be awarded to individual boats.   

I have to say, this idea of a relay race for kids in Opti’s got me thinking of how to make it maybe even more fun.

We used to play this “tag” game in small boats with a tennis ball.  One boat with the ball would chase the other boats and throw it at another boat and if it hit the boat (hull, sail, whatever) then that boat is the new chaser.  It’s was a lot of fun

Maybe some tennis balls with each team number painted on them gets “handed off” (short toss if they are smart) from boat to boat after the previous boat finishes. .  You could have the prep-signal for following boats be defined as the sound-signal (whistle/horn-beep) when the previous boat finishes.   This way, you would only have 1 boat racing on a team at any one time.  This would also take care of subsequent boats starting early, as they can’t start until they have the ball and that happens behind the line. 

You could define a 2nd line that waiting boats must stay behind until their prep signal (previous boat finishes), maybe call it a “preparatory-line”, that is behind and parallel to the starting line.  This creates an area behind the starting line for the ball transfer. 

Could be a hoot!
Created: 21-Aug-08 13:41
Jaakko Haataja
Nationality: Finland
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • Umpire In Training
  • National Judge
0
Thanks for the advice. I'll consider using the tennis ball idea in the future. The event isn't large. Last year we had 4 teams.
Created: 21-Aug-09 10:37
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