Forum: Rule 18 and Room at the Mark

18 vs 19

Catalan Benaros
Hi friends!!
The leeguard mark is a Starboard Gate Mark.
What about this case ?

Cheers !!
Cata

Created: 24-Mar-21 15:31

Comments

P
Michael Butterfield
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1
see 19.1(b) when rule 18 applies between the boats and the obstruction is another boat overlapping with each of them.
I believe they are overlapped on opposite tacks as the are subject to rule 18 see definition Clear Ahead.
Created: 24-Mar-21 15:38
Anthony Pelletier
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18 applies between each pair of boats since they clearly are overlapped when the first of them enters the zone. In the absence of yellow, red would get a "proper course rounding" and can sail wide enough to accomplish that because she is inside and ROW. However, since yellow is ROW to both blue and red, they only get room to gybe, sail to the mark and round. They must complete the gybe and round in a seamanlike manner (Case 118 says: In the definition Mark-Room, the phrase “room to sail to the mark” means space to sail promptly in a seamanlike way to a position close to, and on the required side of, the mark.) Rule 19 does not apply as specified in 19.1b
It appears from the diagram that they are sailing farther from the mark than entitled. Where I yellow, I would protest that. In blue's case, she could claim she was compelled to break the rule by red. Red currently is preventing blue from gybing and fulfilling her obligations to sail to the mark. 
Assuming there is no collision and no damage or injury because 18 maneuvers to avoid. Yellow Protests the port tack boats for taking excessive room and failing to avoid a Starboard boat. Both are found to violate rule 18 and 10, but blue is exonerated. Red is DSQed (unless she took her required penalty). 

That's my call, anyway. 

Created: 24-Mar-21 16:29
Paul Murray
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1.19 does not apply as previously noted by Mr Butterfield, between red and blue. 
2. Blue is keeping clear of red (rrs11) 
3. Yellow is a right of way boat (rrs10)
4. Red and blue must keep clear of yellow or they break rrs 10
5. Rrs 18 does not protect red or blue since neither are sailing within their Mark room
Since we do not know what happened at position 3 no conclusions can be drawn as to the outcome.  
Created: 24-Mar-21 16:51
P
Niko Kotsatos
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I agree with most of what has been said AND
  • 18.4 applies to Red with regards to Blue.
Scratch that. 18.4 not operative
Created: 24-Mar-21 18:39
Anthony Pelletier
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Nicholas: I agree that Blue could also protest Red under 18.4. I think it's a bit close, however. I make Red about 2 BL from the mark. It's definitely pushing the limit of where she would sail in the absence of blue--but is close. 
Created: 24-Mar-21 18:47
P
Michael Butterfield
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This is a gate is 18.4 opertive? 
Created: 24-Mar-21 18:51
Anthony Pelletier
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Oh...I didn't read the description carefully enough before looking at the diagram. Michael is correct that at a gate 18.4 is not operating.
 
Created: 24-Mar-21 19:20
Loic Durand Raucher
Nationality: France
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In my view, we need informations about the kind of boats, the sea and wind conditons.
From position 1, both red and blue are entitled to mark-room from Yellow.
At position 1.8 (just before 2) as keep clear boats( rule 10), mark room is room to sail close to the mark, which they are not doing. They, then, can't be exonerated for a breach of rule 10.
Rule 18.4 doesn't apply, as it is a gate, but this doesn't change the size of  the room described in mark room.
At position 2, it appears too late for red to  keep clear of Yellow. Yellow will have to take avoiding action to comply with rule 14. Red breaks rule 10 and possibly 14 if contact.
Blue is not either sailing within the mark-room she's entitled to, rule 10 applies and she can keep clear of Yellow by luffing and crossing behind. If she does so, she breaks no rule.
In the relation between Blue and Red, Blue can't blame Red (ROW against Blue) as 18.4 doesn't apply, and, may be, some of the boats want or wanted to go the port mark of the gate.
Created: 24-Mar-21 19:48
P
Niko Kotsatos
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 In the relation between Blue and Red, Blue can't blame Red (ROW against Blue) as 18.4 doesn't apply, and, may be, some of the boats want or wanted to go the port mark of the gate. 
That's really the interesting thing here...

Is Blue within her corridor because the corridor includes space to keep clear of Red? I fully admit that I'd prefer if the rule exonerated Blue if she gets squeezed between Yellow and Red.

Also, I agree that we need deets on the conditions and boats... if these boats are foiling (and need very high angles) as they come in, does the corridor allow them to continue to foil at these high angles?
Created: 24-Mar-21 20:00
P
John Allan
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RRS 19 does not apply because of RRS 19.1(b). 
RRS 18.4 does not apply because the mark is a gate mark.
 
Y is required to give mark-room to B. 
@2 the mark-room B is entitled to is room to sail to the mark, that is, the 'direct corridor from @1 to the mark, and B is not sailing within this corridor. 
But the room B is entitled to includes space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2, that is, to keep clear of R. 
B is sailing within the room to which she is entitled and is exonerated if she breaks RRS 10 with respect to Y. 

Y is required to give mark-room to R. 
@2 the mark-room R is entitled to is room to sail to the mark, that is, the 'direct corridor from @1 to the mark, and R is not sailing within this corridor. 
@2 R has no further entitlement to room or mark-room. 
R is not sailing within the room or mark-room to which she is entitled, and if she breaks RRS 10 with respect to Y, is not exonerated. 

It would be helpful if OP told us 'what happened next'.
Depending on the existing conditions and characteristics of boats @2 it may still be possible for R to gybe to the mark and keep clear of Y. 
But from the diagram, @2 Y can't change course to windward without hitting B, so her only option to avoid contact with R is to bear away, so: 
Suppose @2+delta, Y bears away to avoid R: 
  • R has now broken RRS 10 (Case 50:  Y changes course and has reasonable apprehension) 
  • B is now about to collide with Y's stern:  she has also broken RRS 10, but is exonerated for that breach.  Her remaining obligation is to avoid contact and the only way she can do this is to change course to windward behind Y. 

If B change course to windwards behind Y and avoids contact: 
  • B is exonerated for breaking RRS 10, and 
  • B complies with RRS 14. 
  • B breaks no other rule. 
  • Y has given B room to keep clear, both of R and of herself while she is changing course and breaks no rule. 

If B does not avoid contact with Y, I think Y has given her room to keep clear and avoid contact, and it was reasonably possible for her to do so, so: 
  • B breaks RRS 14 and 
  • It was not reasonably possible for Y to avoid contact and Y does not break RRS 14. 
Created: 24-Mar-21 21:55
Al Sargent
Nationality: United States
1
Catalan, What kind of boats are these? What kind of wind? What kind of current?

These are hot angles (reaches) that are normal for a planing dinghy or skiff like a 505 in moderate and windy conditions, but not for slower boats. So, people on this thread need to know more to understand where the laylines are, and thus determine if Red is taking too much room.
Created: 24-Mar-21 22:27
P
John Allan
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Anthony, please don't take this as personal criticism, but I hope that the feedback on your post below will be helpful to you and others in developing your judging techniques. 

Did you have the rules open in front of you when you wrote your post of Created: Today 16:29? 

When discussing rules problems it is helpful, both to ourselves in doing our analysis, and to others in understanding it if we use the language of the rules (and Cases). Looking carefully at the current version of the rules will help to do this. 
 
18 applies between each pair of boats since they clearly are overlapped when the first of them enters the zone. 
Agreed

 In the absence of yellow, red would get a "proper course rounding" and can sail wide enough to accomplish that because she is inside and ROW. 
The phrase "proper course rounding" appears nowhere in the RRS or the Case Book.  R has absolutely no entitlement to room to sail her proper course.  Possibly you are thinking about 'tactical rounding' as described in  USA Appeal US20 .

However, since yellow is ROW to both blue and red, they only get room to gybe, sail to the mark and round.
There is no such thing as 'room to gybe'.  The boats are entitled to mark-room, that is, as you say, room to sail to the mark and round.  Whether this necessarily involves gybing or whether or not they actually do gybe is immaterial.

They must complete the gybe and round in a seamanlike manner
 No rule requires boats to do this.  There may be consequences if they don’t, such as not being exonerated if they break a Part 2 rule, but they don't have to do it.

 Rule 19 does not apply as specified in 19.1b 
Agreed
Note also that RRS 18.4 does not apply.


It appears from the diagram that they are sailing farther from the mark than entitled. 
Agreed
 
Were I yellow, I would protest that. 
How?  What rule do you think they broke?
RRS 18.2 creates an entitlement to mark-room.  A boat entitled to mark-room, except for RRS 18.4, which does not apply in this case, cannot break RRS 18.
What can happen, is she can break some other Part 2 rule (not keep clear, not give room to keep clear) and, if she is not sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled, not be exonerated.

 
In blue's case, she could claim she was compelled to break the rule by red. 
Which particular rule do you say B broke?
Hint:  as others have posted, B has room to change course to windward and keep clear of Y by passing astern of her.
 

Red currently is preventing blue from gybing and fulfilling her obligations to sail to the mark. 
See above:  B has no obligation to either gybe or sail to the mark. 

Assuming there is no collision and no damage or injury because 18 maneuvers to avoid. 
Yellow Protests the port tack boats for 
  • taking excessive room and 
  • failing to avoid a Starboard boat. 
Both are found to violate rule 18 and 10, 
Yes, RRS 10, Not RRS 18.
And boats 'break' rules, they do not 'violate' or 'infringe' them, and
B and R fail to 'keep clear' of Y, and break RRS 10, the word 'avoid' in this sense is only used RRS 20 and 22. 

 but blue is exonerated. 
Yes, but by RRS 43.1(b), not (a), see my discussion in my previous post 

Red is DSQed (unless she took her required penalty). 
Yes, I think so. 
Created: 24-Mar-21 23:30
P
John Allan
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 Al Sargent said Created: Yesterday 22:27 Catalan, What kind of boats are these? What kind of wind? What kind of current?

These are hot angles (reaches) that are normal for a planing dinghy or skiff like a 505 in moderate and windy conditions, but not for slower boats. So, people on this thread need to know more to understand where the laylines are, and thus determine if Red is taking too much room.

Except for RRS 18.4, which does not apply to this scenario because it is a gate, why do you think the laylines (which I think implies something about proper course) affect the mark-room to which boats are entitled?

Even if R/B's proper course is to go 'in wide, out tight'  that still means that her proper course is to 'sail close to the mark', so her initial mark-room is still the direct corridor from the point where she enters the zone to the mark,
Created: 24-Mar-22 00:17
P
John Allan
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 Nicholas Kotsatos said Created: Yesterday 20:00  
 In the relation between Blue and Red, Blue can't blame Red (ROW against Blue) as 18.4 doesn't apply, and, may be, some of the boats want or wanted to go the port mark of the gate. 
That's really the interesting thing here...

Is Blue within her corridor because the corridor includes space to keep clear of Red? I fully admit that I'd prefer if the rule exonerated Blue if she gets squeezed between Yellow and Red.

I wouldn't say B was within the corridor:  she's plainly not, and Case 75 doesn't allow the corridor to get bulged out because of R sailing outside it.

I'd rather say that B's mark-room, in the presence of R was not the direct corridor, but room to comply with her Part 2 obligations.  If you wanted to play around with words, you could say she was sailing within the room to which she was entitled rather than within the mark-room.

Also, I agree that we need deets on the conditions and boats... if these boats are foiling (and need very high angles) as they come in, does the corridor allow them to continue to foil at these high angles?

The question is, is it possible, however disadvantageous, for boats to sail dead down wind to the mark?  I've said before, that even for performance skiffs, this is possible, even though comparatively slow and awkward.  I think a foiling Moth could do it.  I don't know about the bigger foilers.

But note that for foiling events they usually use somewhat different rules, quite likely referring mark-room to proper course.
Created: 24-Mar-22 00:26
P
Kim Kymlicka
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How about this condition:
Red and Blue are sailing to the other gate P. No intention to round the S gate.
Red thinks she will cross Yellow. Blue's option is to bail out. Gray boats are 'desired' course for Red.
The only rules involved are 10 and 14.
It does not look too good for Red. Yellow will need to demonstrate that she did all she could to avoid Red to satisfy 14.

Kim


Created: 24-Mar-22 10:10
P
John Allan
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Kym, B  and R intentions are irrelevant.

They are in the zone of Mark S overlapped inside Y.  Y is required to give them mark-room to sail to and around Mark S, so as discussed in the previous scenario, R is sailing outside her corridor and will not be exonerated if she breaks RRS 10, but B is entitled to room to keep clear of R, and is sailiing within the room to which she is entitled, and is exonerated if she breaks RRS 10.

At the point you have diagrammed, Y well and truly has a reasonable apprehension of collision, but she has not changed course to avoid, so RRS 10 is not yet broken.

As long as Y doesn't change course to windward and hit B or force B into an unseamanlike manoeuvre to keep clear, the only rules in play between Y and R are RRS 10 and 14.

I'd be satisfied that Y can't change course to leeward without hitting R (different if these were Optis, but not with spin boats).

Y could try a slight change to windward and try to thread the needle, but if she contacted R I'd be happy to say this was a Case 87 situation where 'the time between the moment it became clear that [R] would not keep clear and the time of the collision was a very brief interval, so brief that it was impossible for [Y] to avoid contact. Therefore, [Y]did not break rule 14'.
Created: 24-Mar-22 11:44
P
Niko Kotsatos
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John, if B goes behind Y and R gybes (and manages to fully keep clear), is there any recourse for Blue? Is she just SOL regarding mark-room she couldn't use cause R took so much?

(combining two parts of John A's explanation)
Depending on the existing conditions and characteristics of boats @2 it may still be possible for R to gybe to the mark and keep clear of Y. 
B changes course to windward behind Y and avoids contact: 
  • B is exonerated for breaking RRS 10, and 
  • B complies with RRS 14. 
  • B breaks no other rule. 
  • Y has given B room to keep clear, both of R and of herself while she is changing course and breaks no rule. 
Diagram of the situation here (smidge of disbelief suspension required):
Created: 24-Mar-22 12:56
P
Angelo Guarino
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John A re: Anthony’s “proper course rounding” short-handed comment. 

John you said (quoting Anthony)

 In the absence of yellow, red would get a "proper course rounding" and can sail wide enough to accomplish that because she is inside and ROW. 
The phrase "proper course rounding" appears nowhere in the RRS or the Case Book.  R has absolutely no entitlement to room to sail her proper course.  Possibly you are thinking about 'tactical rounding' as described in  USA Appeal US20 .

If I were to hazard to guess, Anthony is referring to Case 75’s description of S’s ability to arguably sail even wider from the mark because it might have been her proper course to do so.

From Case 75 … (emphasis added)

“[…] Indeed, in the absence of P (the boat "referred to" in the definition Proper Course), S's proper course might well have been to sail even farther from the mark and higher than she did, so as to make a smoother, faster rounding and to avoid interference with her wind by being backwinded or blanketed by other boats ahead. “

As you point out, US20 terms this a “tactical rounding”, but I could certainly see how someone might refer to the above as a ‘proper course rounding’ based on the description in Case 75. 

PS: The difference is that in Case 75, rule 18.4 applies and thus the consideration of the “proper course”. This scenario is a gate, 18.4 is off, thus the utility of “tactical rounding” which removes that confusion.  
Created: 24-Mar-22 13:12
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Angelo Guarino
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John A re: “They are in the zone of Mark S overlapped inside Y.  Y is required to give them mark-room to sail to and around Mark S, so as discussed in the previous scenario, R is sailing outside her corridor and will not be exonerated if she breaks RRS 10, but B is entitled to room to keep clear of R, and is sailiing within the room to which she is entitled, and is exonerated if she breaks RRS 10.

Just to be clear in what you are saying above … ?
  1. Blue is entitled to MR from Yellow
  2. Blue’s MR includes room to comply with her obligations under rules of Part 2
  3. Blue is obligated to keep clear of Red under rule 11

Conclusion: Blue is sailing within the MR she is entitled to from Yellow because Blue’s MR includes room to keep clear of Red, even though Red is sailing outside the MR Red is entitled to from Yellow.

???
Created: 24-Mar-22 13:33
P
John Allan
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 Nicholas Kotsatos Said  Created: Today 12:56 John, if B goes behind Y and R gybes (and manages to fully keep clear), is there any recourse for Blue? Is she just SOL regarding mark-room she couldn't use cause R took so much?

Yes, B SOL.

If it weren't for her entitlement to room to keep clear of R, B would be way outside the mark-room she was entitled to, so I wouldn't be too sorry for her.
Created: 24-Mar-22 13:47
P
John Allan
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Angelo Guarino Said  Created: Today 13:33  Just to be clear in what you are saying above … ?
  1. Blue is entitled to MR from Yellow
  2. Blue’s MR includes room to comply with her obligations under rules of Part 2
  3. Blue is obligated to keep clear of Red under rule 11

Conclusion: Blue is sailing within the MR she is entitled to from Yellow because Blue’s MR includes room to keep clear of Red, even though Red is sailing outside the MR Red is entitled to from Yellow.

??? 

Yes.  I can't see any other logical path through the rules.  Can you?

As I said to Nicholas  Created: Today 00:26 
 
I'd rather say that B's mark-room, in the presence of R was not the direct corridor, but room to comply with her Part 2 obligations.  If you wanted to play around with words, you could say she was sailing within the room to which she was entitled rather than within the mark-room.
Created: 24-Mar-22 14:10
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Angelo Guarino
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John A re: “If you wanted to play around with words, you could say she was sailing within the room to which she was entitled rather than within the mark-room.”

I think it’s important to put MR front and center as that is the foundation of the room relationship between Yellow and Blue (w/o course change by Yellow). 

Re: “Yes.  I can't see any other logical path through the rules.  Can you?”

No, just wanted to present it in a simplistic, MR centric way because of the juxtaposition of Red being outside her MR, but Blue still being in. 
Created: 24-Mar-22 14:18
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Kim Kymlicka
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John,
Cannot find anywhere a rule that compels R to sail around the S gate. 18.4 is not in play. 
R has an issue with Y, R 10, or the other way around.
Kim
Created: 24-Mar-22 18:47
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John Allan
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Kim Kymlicka Said Created: Today 18:47  Cannot find anywhere a rule that compels R to sail around the S gate. 18.4 is not in play. 
I'm not following you.  Why is being 'compelled' or not compelled to round Mark S relevant?
Created: 24-Mar-22 22:09
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Angelo Guarino
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Kim it makes a difference if this was at the port-rounded gate.  Below I simply flipped Catalans OP dwg.

Now, Red is ROW to both Blue and Yellow and can continue to the starboard gate if she chooses (as long as she doesn’t break 16.1) because she is both ROW and unrestricted by 18.4.



OP dwg below for easy comparison …

Created: 24-Mar-23 13:19
Anthony Pelletier
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Dear John Allen,
I really debated whether I should respond to you. I ultimately decided I had to correct a couple of errors. But I think we should continue this in email if you want, rather than take over this thread. Feel free to email me. But I won't respond on this thread concerning this again.
First, in answer to your question, I did have the rules open and consulted them. You may not have noticed but I quoted a case specifically, which i thought would have made clear I was consulting text.
But, more importantly, I believe you are badly in error in some of your "corrections" of me.
First, "mark room" ABSOLUTELY  includes room to execute seamanlike maneuvers required to sail to the mark and pass on the required side. I'm sure you understand the physics of sailing well enough to know that Red has to gybe in order to sail to the mark and pass on the required side without violating rule 31. With respect to Yellow, she is ABSOLUTELY entitled to room to execute that gybe in a seamanlike manner. Yes, in this case, she has sailed outside the path required to do that, as I said. 
Secondly, "tactical" is not defined in the rules, but "proper course" is. Thus, it is better to say that an inside ROW boat is entitled to sail her proper course to round the mark, rather than to say that she can take a tactical rounding. 
Note that 18.4 only limits what an inside ROW boat can do (sail no farther than needed to sail her proper course around the mark). Whether it is a gate or not, an Inside ROW boat can sail her proper course to round the mark.
Now, you may object to me shortening the phrase "sail her proper course to round to the mark" to "proper-course rounding." 
You are entitled to that opinion. It is the wording Dave Perry preferred in a recent conversation I had with him. So, at least there is room for disagreement on it. I'm going to stick with using defined terms where possible.

contact me at doc(at)docpelletier(dot)com if you wish to converse. 

-Tony

Created: 24-Mar-23 15:51
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Kim Kymlicka
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John, Ang,
I cannot find in Cata's first submission the fact that the boats are all rounding the S gate, hence the introduction of the option for R and possibly B to sail to the P gate. 
They are in the S gate Zone, but we do not know if that was their desired course. Judging from the R and B's heading, there are some doubts about them rounding the S gate. Sailing to the edge of the zone and right in front of an S boat has me curious.
Add a little current to the picture and it will make more sense for them to go to the P gate.
Obviously, all that would be flushed out in a hearing. 
Kim

Created: 24-Mar-24 02:13
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John Allan
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Kim, I still don't get why you are concerned about which mark boats intend or desire to round.

It makes no difference to the application of the rules in this scenario.
Created: 24-Mar-24 12:09
P
Kim Kymlicka
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John,
If all boats are going to the S gate, then yes. The OP does not state so.
Since 18.4 does not require a boat to gybe, R and B could have chosen to sail to the P gate and are not concerned with 18 at the S gate.  
Consider also the 'advantage' (markroom) both R and B have on Y, if they sail to the S gate mark. What made them not to take the S gate and sail to the edge of the zone? B may be a victim of not planning well or wishful thinking R would gybe and sail to the S gate earlier.
Kim
Created: 24-Mar-24 23:22
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Angelo Guarino
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Kim re: “Since 18.4 does not require a boat to gybe, R and B could have chosen to sail to the P gate and are not concerned with 18 at the S gate. “

What I was trying to do by flipping Cat’s OP diagram, and discuss the contrast between the versions, is to show that boats on starboard at one gate wanting to sail to the other have more power to choose that cross-gate path than boats on port (they leverage their ROW to maneuver rather than relying upon room-entitlement to maneuver).

Even though R & B might not be ‘concerned’ about the S-gate in terms of planning to round it, they need to be concerned that once they sail outside the S-gate MR each individually is entitled to, they don’t have access to 43.1(b) exoneration for breaking RRS 10 when meeting starboard tack boats.

Yes, since 18.4 does not apply, they are not required to round the S-gate.  But, the absence of 18.4 does not convey any rights-of-way or special room-entitlement to sail to the P-gate.   I think this is consistent with what John is saying as well when he says their ‘desire’ has no impact.  Red has to keep clear of Yellow under rule 10 and is only exonerated for breaking rule 10 when she is sailing in the S-gate MR she is entitled to. At position 2, IMO, Red is sailing outside that MR. 
Created: 24-Mar-26 10:45
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Niko Kotsatos
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Let me try to state it another way:
At a gate 18.4 does not apply
A boat's intended gate does not affect their obligations.
If a boat is inside, she gets room
If she's on starboard, she gets to sail to her preferred gate, limited by room and other Part 2 obligations.
In the OP, B & R are on port and Y is on starboard,
  • so B & R are keep clear with only the "protection" of a mark-room corridor
  • their first obligation is to keep clear of Y; they can go to the port mark if they do that.
Created: 24-Mar-27 13:27
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Kim Kymlicka
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Ang,
Just like I said before:
Red thinks she will cross Yellow (for whatever the reason). I see no intention to round the S gate by Red. Blue's option is to bail out. 
The only rules involved in this scenario are 10 and 14.
It does not look too good for Red. Yellow will need to demonstrate that she did all she could to avoid Red to satisfy 14.
Kim
Created: 24-Mar-29 21:12
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