Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

TLE time limit expires

Zsolt Regenyi
Nationality: Hungary
Certifications:
  • International Judge
Hi!

TLE is to be applied if boats are not finished within the time given for the races! The regatta is for one race a day for 3 days. So each day one race. Those who are not finished  within the time limit get 2 points to the legally finished boats number. 

My question is is this TLE rule are somewhere in Worldsailing’s regulation?
Created: 24-May-21 11:02

Comments

Craig Priniski
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
0
You have to write the TLE into your SIs if you plan to use it (Including what the time limit is). Some Race officials find it to be problematic in scoring.  For longer series of races especially in one design boats it has its place.  You can find sample language for your SIs in these forums. 
Created: 24-May-21 11:41
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John Allan
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
TLE is not [yet] included in the RRS.

The OA/RC can devise any formula they like and write it into the NOR/SI.

A standard form of words using 'Finishing Window' is shown in Appendix LG
Created: 24-May-21 11:42
Craig Priniski
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
1
Sample text from the SI guide (World Sailing Apendix LG) This is a guide only and the idea of windows at marks might be ignored in your case.  

16 TIME LIMITS [AND TARGET TIMES]

16.1 The Mark 1 Time Limit, Race Time Limit (see RRS 35), and the Finishing Window are shown in the table below.

Mark 1 Time Limit Race Time Limit Finishing Window

<time> <time> <time>

16.2 If no boat has passed the first mark within the Mark 1 Time Limit, the race will be abandoned.

16.3 The Finishing Window is the time for boats to finish after the first boat sails the course and finishes. Boats failing to finish within the Finishing Window, and not subsequently retiring, penalized or given redress, will be scored Time Limit Expired (TLE) without a hearing. A boat scored TLE shall be scored points for the finishing place [one][two] more than the points scored by the last boat that finished within the Finishing Window. This changes RRS 35, A5.1, A5.2 and A10.

16.4 Failure to meet the Target Time will not be grounds for redress. This changes RRS 62.1(a).

Created: 24-May-21 11:46
P
Paul Jackson
Nationality: United Kingdom
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
  • Club Race Officer
  • National Race Officer
0
Hi
I concur with Craig on this. For scoring if you have a programme such as Sailwave it does all the work for you. You can set it to almost any value you wish for TLE in the set up.
Created: 24-May-21 14:19
Warren Collier
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Race Officer
  • Regional Judge
0
This brings up the conversation of whether TLE should be used vs DNF after time limit since TLE can produce some unfair results where a boat usually near last place gets a much better score than they normally would. One approach that has been suggested when you have a large number of boats that are TLE is to average the number of boats not finishing within the Finishing Window and add it to the number of boats finishing.
Created: 24-May-22 12:11
Jerry Thompson
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Race Officer
0
What is the purpose of scoring TLE rather than DNF?

I believe TLE is used so that competitors don't get discouraged by a DNF score. But, as Warren states, TLE can produce unfair results in a weekend series and should never be used for qualifying rounds.

TLE may be useful in a long series where you want people to keep showing up to race every week. A5.3 is also useful in a long series, but beware, A5.3 places an onus on the Race Committee to count and record the number of boats that come to the starting area for each race. 


Created: 24-May-22 13:22
Craig Priniski
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
0
I've seen TLE defined being scored Last +1 (DNF) in some SIs basically only recording the stubbornness of the teams that never gave up!  
Remember This still helps because if you never define a time limit, the race committee may now have to abandon a race where some finishers have been recorded, which also gets thorny. (If you don't state a time limit or window, there is no time limit on the race.)  You also could simply state "Boats not finishing within the time limit shall be scored DNF" and or "Boats not finished within 30 minutes of the first boat finishing will be scored DNF" 
Created: 24-May-22 13:49
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Jerry, it's just an opportunity to recognize and document the factual difference between DNF (equipment, crew, etc) vs TLE.  I guess it offers the possibility to differentiate the scoring formula as well between DNF and TLE .. but frankly I don't think that makes much sense. 

One thing that does come to mind when talking about TLE that I've brought up before is that, at least in the US, when sailors are faced with a dying breeze and a TL that is fast approaching, they will often do the time/distance calc and realize they will "never make it".  At that point, they may radio the RC and "retire". 

It may be that the SI's provide for a #finisher-based score for DNF/TLE but a #starters-based or #entire-based score for retire/DSQ .. as "retiring" is a penalty a boat can take. 

I've thought a boat, faced with the 'never make it' calculus, should be able to call the RC to let them know they will not finish within time and request they be given a DNF/TLE score.  I think that language matches the facts better and removes the confusion of using "retire" for this purpose. 

PS: the challenge here is def: racing.  A boat is still "racing" unless they "retire", so they can't turn on their engine to head home by calling the RC to TLE.  So, an SI would also need to include a propulsion-use clause for after such a call. 
Created: 24-May-23 10:40
David Chudzicki
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
0
Angelo, interesting worry re "racing".

I wonder if it's actually okay though:

42.1 says: "Except when permitted in rule 42.3 or 45, a boat shall compete by using only the wind and water to increase, ..."

Compete does not have a special definition in RRS, so we use the ordinary meaning, by which I would think a boat is not competing if they've turned on their engine to leave the race course and head home.
Created: 24-May-23 19:04
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
David re: "compete" ..

Hmm .. maybe .. but I'd rather think we can simply state the intent leveraging 42.3(i) .. 

RRS 42.3(i) Sailing instructions may, in stated circumstances, permit propulsion using an engine or any other method, provided the boat does not gain a significant advantage in the race.

So, maybe an SI that allows boats to call in a TLE/DNF might read ???

SI #.# When a boat that started decides that she can not finish within the Finishing Window or due to issues with equipment or crew, she may hail the Race Committee and state she "will not finish" and the reason why.  After receiving confirmation from the RC, the boat may use mechanical-propulsion to exit the racing area.  While doing so, she shall not interfere with a boat that is racing.  The RC shall score her TLE or DNF accordingly.  This changes RRS A5.1. 
Created: 24-May-23 19:29
Craig Priniski
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
0
A boat that starts the engine to return home BEFORE the time limit must retire and is therefore no longer racing. Scored properly RET  Retired 
Created: 24-May-23 19:36
Philip Hubbell
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
  • Judge In Training
1
RC might use the "Finishing Window" shorthand amongst themselves, but why add its definition to the documents? Keep it simple:

16.3 The Finishing Window is the time for boats to finish after the first boat sails the course and finishes. Boats failing to finish within [X minutes] after the first boat sails the course and finishes, and not subsequently retiring, penalized or given redress, will be scored Time Limit Expired (TLE) without a hearing. A boat scored TLE shall be scored points for the finishing place [one][two] more than the points scored by the last boat that finished. within the Finishing Window. This changes RRS 35, A5.1, A5.2 and A10.

Created: 24-May-25 15:04
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Philip re: "but why add its definition to the documents?"

Often different fleets/racing circles will have different courses and finishing windows (different speed of boats and course lengths).  

If you look at SI 16.1 .. it anticipates a "table" of values .. not just a single number. 

16.1 The Mark 1 Time Limit, Race Time Limit (see RRS 35), and the Finishing Window are shown in the table below.
 
Sure, if there is only one fleet (an OD regatta for instance), there is less need for a table. (Though using a table makes it easier to find later on the water if you are the boat running out of time). 
Created: 24-May-26 12:08
P
Peter van Muyden
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
2
I've followed the TLE discussions which are very interesting and I would like to add a few items

Here is the current Appendix LG instruction:
16.3 The Finishing Window is the time for boats to finish after the first boat sails the course and finishes. Boats failing to finish within the Finishing Window, and not subsequently retiring, penalized or given redress, will be scored Time Limit Expired (TLE) without a hearing. A boat scored TLE shall be scored points for the finishing place [one][two] more than the points scored by the last boat that finished within the Finishing Window. This changes RRS 35, A5.1, A5.2 and A10.


To me there are three parts:
  1. Fairness -  Some think that TLE scores are not fair for certain series.  I don't have an opinion regarding the perceived unfairness.
  2. The issue with the current wording -  The current instruction contains a problem in the case where the last boat that finished received certain letter scores. Last October, I submitted a World Sailing Q&A with a TLE scenario which shows the issue, and a few days ago, I received an answer back. The Q&A answer is listed as private, and this means that rules or appendices need to be changed. I've been told that I can't post the Q&A answer on the forum until the rules or appendices are changed. Below are two scenarios that show the problem with the current wording. One benefits the TLE boats, and one hurts them, but both show the issue.
    • ---- First scenario ----
    1. 50 boats registered
    2. Black flag start
    3. Boat Alpha was in was in the triangle during the last minute before the starting signal, but was below the starting line at the starting signal.
    4. Boat Alpha sailed the course and was the last boat to cross the finishing line within the finish window, in 30th position
    5. Boat Bravo plus 19 other boats started correctly, but failed to finish within the finishing window
    6. As per the current TLE instruction in Appendix LG, Boat Bravo and the other 19 boat (TLE boats)will receive a TLE score of 51 plus 1 or 2 points.   51 point for the points scored by the last boat (Alpha) that finished within the Finishing Window plus 1 or 2 points 
    • ---- Second scenario ----
    1. 50 boats registered 
    2. In races 1-3 boat Alpha finishes in 1st place. 
    3. In race 4 boat Alpha is in 2nd place and notices that boat B, who is ahead of him, is in danger.
    4. as per the RRS boat Alpha helps boat Bravo who eventually retires.
    5. Boat Alpha continues on and is the last boat to finish within the finishing window
    6. 10 boats failed to finish within the finishing window
    7. Boat Alpha requests and receives redress for race 4 of average point of races 1-3;  1 point
    8. The ten TLE boats will receive, as per the current instruction, a score of 2 or 3 points in race 4. This comprises 1 point for Alpha's score (points for the last boat to finish within the finish window), plus 1 or 2 points. 
  3. Impact on the race committee - Even if they reword the instruction it will still impact the race committee.  Now the race committee needs to keep track if boats with certain letter scores meet the definition of Finish or not.  See the table below:
 Somebody stated that a scoring program like Sailwave can manage this, which is true, but you need to instruct the program whether a boat that finished last within the finish window with a particular letter score met the definition of finish or not. For example, configure Sailwave with two versions of letter scoring codes listed above in red: one with a scoring method indicating that the boat met the definition of finish, and one without. 

As long as you have a different scoring code name, Sailwave has no problems with managing two versions of those letter scoring codes, but there is a significant impact on the RC.   
At the start of the race the RC has to keep track if a ZFP, BFD or UFD boat was below the starting line at or after her starting signal and therefor meeting or not meeting the definition of Start.

A solution could be that the TLE score would be based on the last boat that finished within the finish window and counts it as a rank position (no letter scores) in the race. It's probably not perfect, but scoring systems should not have any problems with this, and it doesn't add any additional work or complexity for the race committee.


Created: 24-Jun-02 15:52
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John Allan
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
 Warren Collier said Created: 24-May-22 12:11
... TLE can produce some unfair results where a boat usually near last place gets a much better score than they normally would.

Warren's perception of unfairness seems to be based on the notion that the TLE score for a consistently poorly performing boat will not be representative of that consistently poor performance.

This unrepresentativeness of TLE for a consistently poorly performing boat is no greater than the unrepresentativeness of a DNF score for a boat that consistently finishes mid-fleet and only just misses out on the Finishing Window.

This is effect is even more pronounced in handicap racing where a slow, but consistently well sailed boat that usually achieves a good result on handicap, just misses the Finishing Window.

 
Jerry Thompson said Created: 24-May-22 13:22 

What is the purpose of scoring TLE rather than DNF?

I believe TLE is used so that competitors don't get discouraged by a DNF score. 

Yes, TLE is a 'soft' option in the perception of slow boats in the fleet.

But as discussed above, it also better represents the performance of usually well sailed boats that just miss the Finishing Window.


TLE ... should never be used for qualifying rounds.

Why exactly?

...
 A5.3 places an onus on the Race Committee to count and record the number of boats that come to the starting area for each race. 

You mean you don't think that the RO is responsible for knowing how many boats are on his or her race course? 
Created: 24-Jul-12 03:48
P
John Allan
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
 Angelo Guarino Created: 24-May-23 10:40 said a few things that have echoed on more recent threads

[TLE is] just an opportunity to recognize and document the factual difference between DNF (equipment, crew, etc) vs TLE.  I guess it offers the possibility to differentiate the scoring formula as well between DNF and TLE .. but frankly I don't think that makes much sense. 

See discussion in my previous post.  TLE (by providing a #finisher-based score) keeps well sailed boats that just miss the Finishing Window in contention in the series pointscore:  it better represents the usual performance of those boats.  Particularly for handicap.  I suggest that in that light it makes a lot of sense.

One thing that does come to mind when talking about TLE that I've brought up before is that, at least in the US, when sailors are faced with a dying breeze and a TL that is fast approaching, they will often do the time/distance calc and realize they will "never make it".  At that point, they may radio the RC and "retire". 

It may be that the SI's provide for a #finisher-based score for DNF/TLE but a #starters-based or #entire-based score for retire/DSQ .. as "retiring" is a penalty a boat can take.

In my experience this is not a problem.  Where TLE scores are important is for well-sailed boats that just miss the Finishing Window.  For tail-enders that are consistently back there, it doesn't make much difference to her series results between TLE Finishers + 1 and RET Starters + 1.

 I've thought a boat, faced with the 'never make it' calculus, should be able to call the RC to let them know they will not finish within time and request they be given a DNF/TLE score.  I think that language matches the facts better and removes the confusion of using "retire" for this purpose. 
 
There are an infinite number of formulations of the conditions for TLE and the scores to be given for TLE.

Have a look at the doozy here

https://www.hamiltonislandraceweek.com.au/HamiltonIsland.RaceWeek/media/PDF-Files/Race-Week/Sailing-Instructions-2023.pdf

This racing area has numerous tidal gates, courses are designed each day to fit into the tide windows for the day, and when the breeze starts shutting down in the evening it can be pretty clear that some boats are not going to make it. 

PS: the challenge here is def: racing.  A boat is still "racing" unless they "retire", so they can't turn on their engine to head home by calling the RC to TLE.  So, an SI would also need to include a propulsion-use clause for after such a call. 

 It may be that the RO has particularly noisy shoelaces and doesn't her the boat's call saying she has retired, and score her TLE.
Created: 24-Jul-12 05:10
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John Allan
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
 David Chudzicki Created: 24-May-23 19:04 said 
Angelo, interesting worry re "racing".

I wonder if it's actually okay though:

42.1 says: "Except when permitted in rule 42.3 or 45, a boat shall compete by using only the wind and water to increase, ..."

Compete does not have a special definition in RRS, so we use the ordinary meaning, by which I would think a boat is not competing if they've turned on their engine to leave the race course and head home.

We had a long discussion about 'suspension of racing' in a thread started by Greg Wilkins.

As far as the definition of racing is concerned, a boat can't 'temporarily suspend racing'.

I think you're right:  a boat, while continuing to race might 'temporarily suspend competing', that is to say, her course and conduct are temporarily not consistent with gaining advantage over other competitors and finishing first or in a good place.

I think it's a very fine semantic distinction and I'm not thrilled with the idea, for ordinary club racing.
Created: 24-Jul-12 05:18
Jerry Thompson
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Race Officer
0
|TLE ... should never be used for qualifying rounds.
John  A: Why exactly?

Consider an Opti regatta with 100 entrants. On day 1 the competitors are seeded into two fleets of 50.  The results from day 1 racing will be used to determine who competes in the Gold and Silver fleets for the next 2 days of the event. TLE scoring is included in the Notice of Race and is defined as number of boats that finished plus 1.
 
The first race has 7-9 knot of breeze as fleet one starts. Fleet two starts in similar conditions.  But, the wind steadily declines to 4 knots. The first fleet all finishes within their time limit. But, only 20 boats of the second fleet finishes before the time limit expires. Boats 21-50 of the second fleet are scored TLE or 21. The wind does not come back that day. The race committee uses the scores to determine who competes the next two days in the Gold and Silver fleets as depicted in the following table: 


The table shows the scoring positions for the first 31 boats in each fleet.  The first 21 boats in each fleet enter the Gold fleet. But, from that position on, the next eight Fleet 2 boats with the TLE score of 21 enter the Gold fleet. TLE scoring can give unexpected and undesired results for qualify rounds. The above actually occurred at a large C420 event.
//
|A5.3 places an onus on the Race Committee to count and record the number of boats that come to the starting area for each race. 
John  A: You mean you don't think that the RO is responsible for knowing how many boats are on his or her race course?

Of course not. I wanted to emphasize that A5.3 requires that the race committee count the number of boats that come to the starting area (may not actually start) for each race. Counting the boats that come to the starting area can be challenging depending on the size of the fleet. The number of boats that start is easier to count as compared to before the start as you might imagine.


Created: 24-Jul-12 11:09
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John Allan
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Hi Jerry,

Firstly, if I was the CRO for an Opti fleet, and in a dying breeze, I didn't manage to shorten course to get more than 21 out of a fleet of 50 boats finished, I'd be pretty disappointed in myself.  OK, I understand that sometimes it can't be helped.

I assume that If you didn't use TLE, you would still use a DNF time limit.

Here's the table, with the right hand column showing the scores Fleet 2 would have achieved with boats after place 21 scored DNF.  The left lower green sector shows the boats from Fleet 1 that proceed to Gold Fleet under the DNF scoring system.


How are the 8 Fleet 1 boats shaded green proceeding to Gold Fleet, any more or less fair than the 8 Fleet 2 boats shaded Yellow going through?

Are you seriously suggesting that boats that can't do better than 20th in a qualifying race will miraculously pole vault onto the podium for the series?

In the sample results that you have to hand, can you tell us how many of the Fleet 2 boats that TLE'd finished in the top 10 of the Gold Fleet?

BTW, you said ' TLE scoring can give unexpected and undesired results for qualify rounds'.

What criteria do you suggest for using to determine expected or desired results?

OptiMom satisfaction?
Created: 24-Jul-12 12:21
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