Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Question regarding RET

Joe Rockmore
There used to be a scoring decision RAF = retired after finishing, which, I assume, was for boats who took some action that would disqualify them and either failed to exonerate themselves or the action was not exoneratable (such as sailing through a restricted area). It was changed to RET, which, I assume, means more-or-less the same except it can happen before finishing (such as by radio to the Race Committee). If my interpretation is correct, then a boat that voluntarily decides to stop racing is scored DNF, not RET, in spite of the fact that many racers will radio the Race Committee saying, "we are retiring." If voluntarily deciding to stop racing is scored RET, then what is DNF for? I would score a boat DNF if they failed to finish by the time limit, but is that the only reason for a DNF? It would be if voluntarily stopping racing is scored RET. I would like some clarification on when to score a boat RET and when DNF. Thank you.
Created: 24-Jul-05 06:39

Comments

P
John Allan
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
RAF was introduced in the large scale 2001 re-write of Appendix A to the RRS.

Details of the reason for this are not readily available (Elvstrom just talks about 'entirely revised and reworded'.  Maybe Dave Perry's book for 2001 will have some more details).

RAF was replaced with RET in the 2013 rewrite, and the explanation given in Submission 184-11 as follows

Purpose or Objective
To provide correct scoring abbreviations for boats that (1) take a penalty by retiring during a race, or (2) are penalized when the sailing instructions provide for a penalty other than disqualification

Reasons
At present, there is no scoring abbreviation for a boat that takes a penalty by retiring during a race (rule 44.1(b)) or retires as required by Appendix P2.2 or P2.3. In these circumstances, the race committee either scores the boat RAF or DNF. RAF is incorrect, since the boat retired before finishing. DNF does not adequately describe the situation.

RET is the appropriate abbreviation to use for a boat that retires in these circumstances. There is no reason to maintain RAF, since RET covers any retirement, whether before or after finishing.

Every boat that advises the race committee that it has retired should be scored RET.

Yes, the only remaining case where a boat should be scored DNF if is that there is a race time limit specified, and she does not finish within that time limit (and has not retired).

Generally race committees can take any boat that is known to have left the racing area (or seen motoring, and evidently no longer racing) without finishing as having retired and score her RET, even if she has not explicitly advised the race committee that she has.  If a boat then complains, this can easily be remedied by the race committee correcting her score to the appropriate score.
Created: 24-Jul-05 07:41
Jerry Thompson
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Race Officer
1
RET vs DNF - same score per A5.1, but different meanings. I believe RET is often misused by sailors. I agree with John A that if a boat informs the Race Committee (RC) they are retiring, they should be scored RET as it would be messy for the RC to try to confirm that they are indeed taking a penalty.

Scores for the following boats:
A boat breaks RRS 14 with damage and takes a penalty by retiring from that race - RET
A boat is protested on the water and does not take a two turns penalty, later during the same race, she determines that she did break a rule and takes a penalty leaving the course - RET
A boat receives her second or third RRS 42 infraction, Appendix P, and takes a penalty - RET
A boat takes a post-race penalty per Appendix T1 or V2 - SCP
A boat ashore after racing realizes she missed an offset mark and informs the RC - RET.  Some here may propose that NSC would be appropriate, but since the competitor took the penalty
    by retiring, I think RET is appropriate. If the RC realized she missed the offset after racing without the sailor retiring - NSC
A boat has an equipment failure, mainsail halyard parts, and cannot continue in that race - DNF
During a race the breeze pipes up above a sailors comfort zone and informs the RC he/she is leaving the race - DNF
A competitor is tired and decides to return to shore during a race - DNF

I believe the purpose of RET is to show that the boat took a penalty, but is commonly used by sailors to report to the RC that they are not going to finish the race.

Created: 24-Jul-05 10:52
P
John Allan
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
I stick by my view that if a boat says she is retiring or has retired she should be scored RET.

Its nobody's business why a boat retires, except that a RO may ask in order to ensure an appropriate safety response.

From a protest committee point of view under RRS 64.2 a boat that has retired should be regarded as having taken an applicable penalty without any enquiry about why or when she has retired.
Created: 24-Jul-05 11:41
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Joe we also hit on the some of the same questions in a thread about a boat that wants to stop racing due to deciding early they can't make the TL here is this thread TLE Time Limit Expires
Created: 24-Jul-05 12:30
P
John Allan
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
If you have TLE you can't have DNF.
Created: 24-Jul-05 12:38
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
John .. re "If you have TLE you can't have DNF."

Can you describe more the point you are making?  Just that they are ID'ing diff things or that the possibility of TLE being prescribed in the race docs precludes the use of DNF on any boat in the race?
Created: 24-Jul-05 12:56
P
John Allan
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Ang,  Any boat that does not finish within the Finishing Window shall be scored TLE.  This leaves no room for a boat to be scored DNF.
Created: 24-Jul-05 13:05
Matt Bounds
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Race Officer
0
I generally agree with what Jerry says, however, some one-design classes re-define the score for DNF (typically # of finisher + 2).  In those instances, it's important to distinguish between RET and DNF. When a competitor informs me they are "retiring" from a race, I will always ask, "Is everyone OK? Do you require any assistance?" That will invariably precipitate a response that allows me to determine which score to assign - and render assistance if need be.
Created: 24-Jul-05 13:08
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Matt .. what you wrote describes the practical application of what's happening on the water.  I won't rehash the point I made in the other thread ... but I do feel we are lacking a descriptive term for sailors to use to clearly make that distinction vs "retire".  I wrote an SI in that thread that attempted to capture the reality of what is actually being communicated by the boat and documented by the RC. 
Created: 24-Jul-05 13:15
Matt Bounds
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • National Race Officer
0
I respectfully disagree, John.

Scenario - 20 minute finishing window, One boat informs the RC vessel at the weather mark they are dropping out of the race due to a mechanical issue.  All the other boats finish within 5 minutes.

By your logic, I would need to wait at least 15 minutes after the "last" boat finishes to initiate another starting sequence. 15 minutes is a long time when you're on a small boat waiting for the RC to do something.
Created: 24-Jul-05 13:24
Jerry Thompson
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Race Officer
0
For DNF not to be a valid score, I believe it must be written out by the Sailing Instructions or NOR. 

Please consider the following scenario in which the SIs include a TLE score, but is silent on DNF:

A 50 boat fleet of ILCA 4s. Third and last race of the day. The wind is piping up to the upper limits. At the weather mark of leg 1 of 4, a boat notifies the RC that they are done and are headed in. All other boats sail the course, but 15 are scored TLE or 36 in this example. Should the sailor who left the course after 1 leg be scored 36 or 51? I believe DNF, 51, is the correct score.
Created: 24-Jul-05 13:43
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Jerry .. re: "For DNF not to be a valid score, I believe it must be written out by the Sailing Instructions or NOR. "

It's the other way around.  DNF is listed in Appx A ... it's TLE that needs to be written in. 

Your Q would depend upon how the scoring is setup .. and if there was a distinction.  In the ILCA class with the winds too high ... there is no engine ... the boat simply sails home .. so I think they are all scored the same (in your case). 

The harder issue is when we have zero wind and we include boats with a motor ... or maybe ILCA's being towed-in by a support boat. 
Created: 24-Jul-05 14:04
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
0
Submission 184-11 introduced the scoring abbreviation RET in the 2013. It listed two circumstances when it should be used. When a boat (1) takes a penalty by retiring during a race, or (2) Is penalized when the sailing instructions provide for a penalty other than disqualification.

The Racing Rules of Sailing use the term retire 25 times in the following definitions and rules; Racing, Sportsmanship and the Rules, 44.1(b), 90.3(a), Appendix A, Appendix B, Appendix D, Appendix E, Appendix F, P2,2, P2.3, P2.4.

The usage in the rules is consistent with retirement being a penalty that a boat takes during or after a race. A boat does not retire simply because she stops racing. A boat needs to take a positive action to retire, either by completing a penalty report form acknowledging she broke a rule or informing the race committee of her intention to retire for breaking a rule.

When a competitor informs me they are "retiring" from a race, I will ask, "Is everyone OK? Do you require any assistance?" (same as Matt B) Unless a boat makes it clear she is taking a penalty, I score them DNF.
 
A request for redress, rule 62.1(b), amongst other things requires that the injury or physical damage was because of the action of a boat that was breaking a rule of Part 2 and took an appropriate penalty or was penalized... If the race committee scores everyone who failed to finish RET, how will the protest committee determine if the boat took an appropriate penalty or was simply given a penalty by race committee.

Racing A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishes and clears the finishing line and marks or retires, or until the race committee signals a general recall, postponement or abandonment

SPORTSMANSHIP AND THE RULES
Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when a boat breaks a rule and is not exonerated she will promptly take an appropriate penalty or action, which may be to retire.

44.1 Taking a Penalty
(b) if the boat caused injury or serious damage or, despite taking a penalty, gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach her penalty shall be to retire.
 
P2.2 Second Penalty
When a boat is penalized a second time during the event, she shall promptly retire. If she fails to do so she shall be disqualified without a hearing and her score shall not be excluded.

P2.3 Third and Subsequent Penalties
When a boat is penalized a third or subsequent time during the event, she shall promptly retire. If she does so her penalty shall be disqualification without a hearing and her score shall not be excluded. If she fails to do so her penalty shall be disqualification without a hearing from all races in the event, with no score excluded, and the protest committee shall consider calling a hearing under rule 69.2.

Submission 184-11

Purpose or Objective
To provide correct scoring abbreviations for boats that (1) take a penalty by retiring during a race, or (2) are penalized when the sailing instructions provide for a penalty other than disqualification

Reasons
At present, there is no scoring abbreviation for a boat that takes a penalty by retiring during a race (rule 44.1(b)) or retires as required by Appendix P2.2 or P2.3. In these circumstances, the race committee either scores the boat RAF or DNF. RAF is incorrect, since the boat retired before finishing. DNF does not adequately describe the situation.

RET is the appropriate abbreviation to use for a boat that retires in these circumstances. There is no reason to maintain RAF, since RET covers any retirement, whether before or after finishing.


Created: 24-Jul-05 14:26
Jerry Thompson
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Ang I used a bad example, please allow me another chance.

If the SIs invoke TLE, I do not believe that that, in itself, eliminates or replaces DNF.

Please consider the following scenario in which the SIs include a TLE score, but is silent on DNF:

A 50 boat fleet of ILCA 4s. Third and last race of the day. The winds are light and have been all day.  At the weather mark of leg 1 of 4, a boat notifies the RC that they are done and are headed in. All other boats sail the course, but 15 are scored TLE or 36 in this example. Should the sailor who left the course after 1 leg be scored 36 or 51? I believe DNF, 51, is the correct score.
Created: 24-Jul-05 14:56
Jerry Thompson
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Umpire In Training
  • Regional Race Officer
0
I learned something new and will add to my toolbox, "When a competitor informs me they are "retiring" from a race, I will ask "Is everyone OK? Do you require any assistance?"  Unless a boat makes it clear she is taking a penalty, I score them DNF." 

Thank you Matt and Mark.
Created: 24-Jul-05 15:11
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
"When a competitor informs me they are "retiring" from a race, I will ask "Is everyone OK? Do you require any assistance?"  Unless a boat makes it clear she is taking a penalty, I score them DNF." 

Supporting my point that we should evolve a term that is diff from "retire" that boats can use that clearly conveys their intent to the RC ... "dropping-out" or more direct to DNF "Will not finish" might be clearer. 
Created: 24-Jul-05 16:31
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Jerry re: "If the SIs invoke TLE, I do not believe that that, in itself, eliminates or replaces DNF.".  I agree.  I think it was John A that made the case they are mutually exclusive. 
Created: 24-Jul-05 16:32
P
John Allan
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
Mark Townsend
said 
The Racing Rules of Sailing use the term retire 25 times in the following definitions and rules; Racing, Sportsmanship and the Rules, 44.1(b), 90.3(a), Appendix A, Appendix B, Appendix D, Appendix E, Appendix F, P2,2, P2.3, P2.4.

The usage in the rules is consistent with retirement being a penalty that a boat takes during or after a race. A boat does not retire simply because she stops racing. A boat needs to take a positive action to retire, either by completing a penalty report form acknowledging she broke a rule or informing the race committee of her intention to retire for breaking a rule.

When a competitor informs me they are "retiring" from a race, I will ask, "Is everyone OK? Do you require any assistance?" (same as Matt B) Unless a boat makes it clear she is taking a penalty, I score them DNF.

I respectfully disagree.

The Definition of racing states

Racing A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishes and clears the finishing line and marks or retires, or until the race committee signals a general recall, postponement or abandonment.

Other than when the race committee signals a general recall, postponement or abandoment, the only way that a boat can cease to be racing, other than by finishing is to retire.

In my opinion  any time a boat states that she is retiring or states that she is no longer racing, she should be scored RET.

Mark Townsend
said 
A request for redress, rule 62.1(b), amongst other things requires that the injury or physical damage was because of the action of a boat that was breaking a rule of Part 2 and took an appropriate penalty or was penalized... If the race committee scores everyone who failed to finish RET, how will the protest committee determine if the boat took an appropriate penalty or was simply given a penalty by race committee.

In my opinion the last clause of Basic Principle Sportsmanship and the Rules '... take an appropriate penalty or action, which may be to retire' means that to retire is to take an appropriate penalty (except where the appropriate penalty is DNE). A boat that retires 'takes' a penalty:  she is not 'given a penalty by the race committee.  

Where a boat takes a penalty by retiring, there is no requirement in the rules to make any connection between an incident and the retirement.


Matt Bounds
said 
I respectfully disagree, John.

Scenario - 20 minute finishing window, One boat informs the RC vessel at the weather mark they are dropping out of the race due to a mechanical issue.  All the other boats finish within 5 minutes.

By your logic, I would need to wait at least 15 minutes after the "last" boat finishes to initiate another starting sequence. 15 minutes is a long time when you're on a small boat waiting for the RC to do something.

I guess you were responding to my stastement

Any boat that does not finish within the Finishing Window shall be scored TLE.  This leaves no room for a boat to be scored DNF.

OK, I should have qualified it:  Any boat that does nor retire or finish within the Finishing Window ...

She has told you she is no longer racing, she has not finished, you have not postponed, or abandoned:  she has retired, all boats that  are going to finish have finished.  You can safely roll into your next starting sequence.
Created: 24-Jul-10 07:54
Joe Rockmore
0
John Allan: you state, "Other than when the race committee signals a general recall, postponement or abandoment, the only way that a boat can cease to be racing, other than by finishing is to retire." Then when do you score a boat DNF?
Created: 24-Jul-10 11:08
Julian Summers
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
0
It seems to me that common usage of the word "retire" in the sailing I have done (club level and local regattas) is summed up in the meaning of the French word "retirer" (from which our English word derives): namely "withdraw to a place of safety or seclusion".  The decision by the rule makers to use RET to indicate a boat has stopped racing as a form of penalty seems to confuse things.

Perhaps in a future quad the rule makers need to introduce a new score, such as "RTP Retired, Took Penalty" for circumstances such as those covered by Rule 44.1?  Then the score RET can continue to be used for boats which stop racing because of illness, injury, or damage and consequently withdraw to a place of safety. 

I think that only leaves DNF - does it then serve any purpose? 
Created: 24-Jul-11 01:52
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
1
Submission 184-11 added the scoring abbreviation RET to the 2013-2016 rule book. The reasons given was to provide a scoring abbreviation for a boat that takes a penalty by retiring during a race. Prior to 2013 you scored boats that failed to finish, or hailed they were "retiring" before finishing, DNF.

Submission 184-11

Reasons

At present, there is no scoring abbreviation for a boat that takes a penalty by retiring during a
race (rule 44.1(b)) or retires as required by Appendix P2.2 or P2.3. In these circumstances, the
race committee either scores the boat RAF or DNF. RAF is incorrect, since the boat retired
before finishing. DNF does not adequately describe the situation.

RET is the appropriate abbreviation to use for a boat that retires in these circumstances. There is
no reason to maintain RAF, since RET covers any retirement, whether before or after finishing.
Created: 24-Jul-11 13:37
Joe Rockmore
1
So this implies, to me, that RET is a broader version of the old RAF, covering retiring both during and after a race, but the salient point is that retiring is taking a penalty. Therefore, if a boat chooses to stop racing, say for equipment failure or they just want to get to the yacht club bar, the appropriate score is DNF, not RET. But there remains an issue of how a RC knows which circumstance happened if a boat radios in, "We are retiring." I suppose the RC can ask why, or simply take them at their word that they know the difference and score them RET. We should try to inform racers that there is a difference between radioing in "We are retiring" and "We are voluntarily ceasing racing," but I don't think many will get the distinction or implement what I suggest.
Created: 24-Jul-11 13:47
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Joe I prefer, "Race Committee this is 'Hot-n-Tired'.  We are heading in and will not finish the race.  Everyone's fine. "
Created: 24-Jul-11 14:17
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
1
or maybe ...  "Competitors the is Race Committee we are 'Hot-n-Tired'.  We are heading in please take your own finish times.  See you at the bar."
Created: 24-Jul-11 14:21
Mark Townsend
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
  • International Umpire
  • International Judge
0
Joe, Yes... Based upon submission 184-11, the intent of RET was for it to be a broader version of the old RAF, covering retiring both during and after a race, and that retiring is taking a penalty.

The Basic Principles, RRS 63.1 and RRS 64.2(a) seem to support that retirement is a penalty and a boat "takes a penalty" and is not given a penalty without a hearing.

A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when a boat breaks a rule and is not exonerated she will promptly take an appropriate penalty or action, which may be to retire.

63.1 - A boat or competitor shall not be penalized without a protest hearing, except as provided in rules 30.2, 30.3, 30.4, 64.4(d), 64.5(b), 64.6, 69, 78.2, A5.1 and P2. 

64.2(a) - if a boat has taken an applicable penalty, she shall not be further penalized ... 

John Allan does point out that the definition of racing doesn't allow a boat to stop racing unless she retires (takes a penalty). This creates some interesting issues.  
Racing A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishes and clears the finishing line and marks or retires, or until the race committee signals a general recall, postponement or abandonment.

Almost everyone uses the finishing window sailing instruction.
Boats failing to finish within the Finishing Window shall be scored Did Not Finish without a hearing. This changes RRS 35, A5.1 and A5.2.
The boat might be scored DNF, but they haven't met any of the criteria in the definition to stop racing! Are they still racing? Does the SI change the definition of racing? Changing a definition is prohibited by RRS 86.1(b).

Created: 24-Jul-11 15:11
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Mark ... this was my SI solution for that ...

SI #.# When a boat that started decides that she can not finish within the Finishing Window or due to issues with equipment or crew, she may hail the Race Committee and state that she "will not finish" and the reason why.  After receiving confirmation from the RC, the boat may use mechanical propulsion [or any other method] to exit the racing area.  While doing so, [exiting] she shall not interfere with a boat that is racing.  The RC shall score her TLE or DNF accordingly.  This changes RRS A5.1. 

So ... under above the boat exiting can still be penalized.
Created: 24-Jul-12 13:00
P
John Allan
Certifications:
  • National Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
0
 Joe Rockmore said Created: Wed 11:08 
... "Other than when the race committee signals a general recall, postponement or abandoment, the only way that a boat can cease to be racing, other than by finishing is to retire." Then when do you score a boat DNF?
When you have NOT replaced DNF with TLE in your NOR/SI Scoring.
Created: 24-Jul-12 13:06
Joe Rockmore
0
Angelo...I like your solution, but why introduce TLE, which is not in RRS? If you use TLE to score a boat in the circumstance above, when would you ever score a boat DNF? I think DNF is the appropriate score for a boat that will not finish for any reason (other than the criteria for retiring).
Created: 24-Jul-12 13:07
P
Angelo Guarino
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Fleet Measurer
0
Tom ... yea I was just putting a place holder in the event that an SI previously defined TLE for the event. 
Created: 24-Jul-12 15:06
[You must be signed in to add a comment]
Cookies help us deliver our services. By using our services, you agree to our use of cookies. Learn more