Forum: Rule 18 and Room at the Mark

2 questions on 18.3.

Hi all i have 2 questions on 18.3 that have been bugging me. 

Question 1 

On a windward mark round to port, boat P tacked safely without interfering with the boat (rule 13 and 15 does not apply) close to the mark from port to starboard in the zone and was the inside boat, Boat S was on starboard when entering the zone and was fetching the mark. 

As the boats were about too round the mark they touched gunnel to gunnel, windward leeward. The starboard boat was sailing close hauled but not above it and did not try to avoid the other boat even though she could have sailed above close hauled.

I would assume the following.

18.3 is on 18.3(a) never on as the starboard boat never sailed above close hauled.

“18.3 (a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact,”

Therefore, Rule 11 applies and Boat S is at fault?

Question 2

Same first part as above but this time, there was no contact as they were about to round the mark the wind shifted to a header that now puts boat S above close-hauled and thus cannot round the mark without contacting boat P.

Has boat P effectively but caused the other boat above close hailed, just by being at the wrong place at the wrong time when the wind shifted?

My thinking is yes P broken rule 18.3.(a)?

Both scenarios I have seen happen with radio sailing where skipper and boat are quite a distance apart and sailed in shifty winds. 

Many Thanks 

Nick

Created: Yesterday 16:41

Comments

Format:
P
Michael Butterfield
Feeding cats at a friends so will need to get the book out at home.

Leeward in 1 not 2 seems to have broken no rule as w does not go ebove closehaulled. 
W is always w so breaks that rule. 

She would be exonerated if she had mark room, here i need to check but my suspicion is she does not. 
Created: Yesterday 17:10
John Christman
Nationality: United States
I agree with your conclusions.

Question 1
I would say that S has broken rule 11 as she is the windward boat and required to keep clear.  P does not break 18.3(a) until S goes above close-hauled, up until that point, it is simply a windward/leeward.  Neither boat is entitled to mark room as 18.2 does not apply.  S also breaks 14 as she could have avoided the contact by luffing.  P is the right-of-way boat so does not break 14 as it is highly unlikely that she could have done anything to avoid the contact once it was clear that S was not going to keep clear. 

Question 2
I would say that P has broken rule 18.3(a) as S had to sail above close-hauled.  The rule does not say anything about why S had to sail above close hauled, it is just that if S does sail above close-hauled then P has broken the rule. 
Created: Yesterday 17:24
P
Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
John C re: "The rule does not say anything about why S had to sail above close hauled, it is just that if S does sail above close-hauled then P has broken the rule. "

Actually, 18.3 uses the word "cause" .. so we are in a cause-conundrum .. just like the new RRS 14 (b) and (c). 

What does it mean to "cause" a boat to do something ...  and can we apply that consistently through 18.3 and 14?

PS: For instance, if one boat does not force a course-change in another boat, can the first boat be said to "cause" some result for the 2nd boat (as in Nick's Q2)?
Created: Yesterday 20:06
Niko Kotsatos
Nationality: United States
I agree with Nick, Mike and John on Q1

Re Q2 and the "cause conundrum", note the rule says "cause the boat to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact." It's P's presence that would cause the theoretical contact, and avoiding contact that would cause the pinching.

That "to avoid contact" removes some of the "cause conundrum". "Sail above close-hauled" can mean either "turn above close-hauled" or "continue to sail above close-hauled." I think in most cases, it is P's presence that causes S to sail above close-hauled, even if a shift alters the geometry... that's the risk you take tacking inside of 3 lengths.

What I'm still not sure about is (new) Question 2b where in the shift, Starboard can still fetch, but only by staying above close-hauled. P is undoubtedly forcing S further above close than otherwise, but if they agree S would have been above close-hauled regardless in order to remain "fetching", then is P breaking 18.3?
Created: Yesterday 22:06
Andrew Alberti
I agree with John on most of this.  Rule 18.3(a) does say "shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact, and" so it does talk about "why".  Having said that I think the question would be if she fell down to close-hauled (or rather just took the header) would there have been contact.  If not then her sailing above close hauled was not "to avoid contact" but if there would have been contact then her sailing above close-hauled is "to avoid contact" (even if there are other reasons as well).  With P being to leeward I have trouble constructing the situation where S has to luff to get around the mark but would not make contact with P if she went down to closehauled.
Created: Today 03:43
Murray Cummings
Hi Nick,
I don;t think it matters that S must sail above close-hauled to round the mark.  The question I would ask is , If S were to bear away to close-hauled, would she avoid contact with L?  If the answer is no, then S must have to sail above close-hauled in order to avoid contact and therefore L breaks 18.3
Created: Yesterday 23:15
Niko Kotsatos
Nationality: United States
But if she were to bear away below close-hauled and no longer be fetching the mark, would she then no longer have the protection of RRS 18.3?

Or can she still be fetching if bearing below close-hauled gets her the speed to round even if she momentarily isn't pointing above the buoy?
Created: Today 01:07
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