That is the right answer. And if you put Blue on the other side of White, they both are leeward boats per the definitions and they both are required to keep clear of the other.
The interesting thing is that most people would say that in position 1, Blue is the windward boat, because they are to windward or upwind of White. The italics here are important to distinguish between the RRS defined term and the dictionary defined term. But Blue is not on White's windward side, rather Blue is upwind of White.
Take a look at Match Racing Call B10 for another look at this scenario.
I belive we go back to the last point of certanty, when we can see who was give way. That is usually blue before she bore off or gybed. She is definitely at risk.
Michael - Unfortunately, in the fleet racing rules, we don't have the concept of last point of certainty as a general concept. It does appear in 18.2(e) but not in general.
Suppose Blue was clear ahead before she bore off to this course, perhaps because she went around a mark. Yes, they would be on different legs, but probably sailing their proper courses, so no RRS 23.2.
And if you put Blue on the other side of White, they both are leeward boats per the definitions and they both are required to keep clear of the other.
John, The definition is “When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.” As they are both on the leeward side of the other they are both right-of-way and keep clear at the same time
Mark - obviously, my wording was not the best. From each boat's perspective, they each believe they are on the other boat's leeward side, and, therefore, the right of way boat, and that, not being a leeward boat, the other boat is, therefore, a windward boat and required to keep clear of them. The answer all depends on where you are sitting. And if you are not on either boat it's really only 16 and 14 that keeps them apart.
I remember this scenario! Has anything changed in in the current quad though? Can't think of anything off the top of my head especially if they were both holding course (initially)
Yes, sometimes it seems like we have lots of different ways of playing the same game.
I recall having heard that there was a proposal to add the last point of certainty rule from match racing to the fleet racing rules but I don't know what became of that. Perhaps the rule writers decided it wasn't needed or might cause confusion.
IMHO: In this scenario, while fleetracing Rule 11 does not apply as both are Windward. Rule 12 does not apply a both in X2/Y2 are clear ahead of eachother. If neither one is changing course and both are sailing a straight line then Rule 16 does not apply. Rule 14 does apply, boats have to avoid collision/contact. In a protest situation that brings the situation to the last clearly established right-of-way relationship, plus Rule 14. Suppose White X has rounded a downwind mark, ahead of boat Y while properly following the race course, the the last situation with RoW can be determined as X was sailing clear ahead of Y and had RoW (R12). That may lead to a protest decision where in the situation X2 Y2 when boats meet that X has Right of Way...... based on the last established realtionship before it became "messy"...
Correct? Although it is an awkward situation, but does happen every once in a while....
Well it's just an oddity that they are the same "tack" but neither boat is overtaking the other from astern so none of the usual suspect rules apply at the moment of the incident or just prior too really. Since Just before and just after one of the two boats is windward, but they aren't overlapped at that time so again doesn't apply. It's contrived but possible. I didn't see anything in the latest rules that changes the answer provided.
The problem, as I see it, is linguistic, not legal. Under the definitions, overlap can be mutual, but leeward/windward cannot be mutual. Therefore, only one boat has the right of way under Rule 11. The other must keep clear.
Col Regs and RRS are somewhat aligned with RRS 10 & 11, and 14.
Col Regs condensed…. Rule 12
Sailing vessels
(ii). when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward;
(b). For the purpose of this Rule the windward side shall be deemed to be the side opposite to that on which the mainsail is carried.
The Col Regs state the “vessel”. RRS Rule 11 states “boat”. In the above scenario, there is a boat to windward same tack and a boat to leeward same tack. Tack determined by the definition. Rule 11 takes it to same tack (already defined) and the windward BOAT vs leeward BOAT. I’m sure the rules aren’t meant to be so ambiguous. Legal terms aside, this is ambiguous.
Rule 14.a: If reasonably possible, a boat shall avoid contact with another boat
Rule 16.1: When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear.
Per definitions, both boats are windward boats, so per Rule 11, both boats need to keep clear of each other.
Please forgive the focus below on ILCAs/Lasers, but hopefully it's helpful since they're popular boats and often have their best VMG by the lee, making the situation above fairly common, especially at windward marks.
If a ILCA sailing downwind turns into an ILCA sailing upwind, that triggers 16.1. Penalize downwind boat. (That's not in this diagram, but including it here for completeness.)
If a ILCA sailing downwind holds course and contacts an ILCA sailing upwind, penalize downwind boat per 14.a. Speaking as a practitioner (active ILCA racer), not as a judge: to me, "reasonably possible" is the key phrase here. Here's why.
For ILCA going downwind, it's more "reasonably possible" to avoid a collision with another boat. We regularly turn through 20 to 40 degrees in response to waves (whether surfing, avoiding, or sailing through) or puffs or wind shadows. We often do these turns every few seconds downwind, and it's something that a "competent but not expert" (definition of seamanlike) ILCA sailor can do.
Conversely, for an ILCA going upwind, it's less "reasonably possible" to turn to avoid another boat. Tacking isn't an option since it takes too long and your target area, once on port, as seen by the downwind boat, converts from maybe five feet wide (hull plus sailor) to 14 feet wide. So, bearing away is your only option. To do that, you have to dramatically drop the mainsheet, which could be caught around your feet, or the boom can drag in the water if it's heavy wind. Sounds simple to fix, but mistakes happen when you're maxing out your heart rate hiking in a race. So, these problems happen to "competent but not expert" ILCA sailors all the time.
So, it's reasonably possible for an ILCA sailing downwind to avoid another boat. It's much less reasonably possible for an ILCA sailing upwind to do so. For this reason, if I were on a protest committee for ILCAs, I'd put the onus of RRS 14.a compliance on the boat sailing downwind.
In summary: in either situation, turning or holding course, the downwind by the lee boat has to avoid the upwind boat.
Happy to hear from others more trained in the rules on this analysis...
Long story short, it comes down to:
Rule 14.a: If reasonably possible, a boat shall avoid contact with another boat
Rule 16.1: When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear.
Per definitions, both boats ar...
Al, not sure the 2nd or 3rd bullet are correct.
Rule 14.a: If reasonably possible, a boat shall avoid contact with another boat
Rule 16.1: When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear.
Per definitions, both boats are windward boats, so per Rule 11, both boats need to keep clear of each other.
The definition Leeward Windward says "When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat." As neither boat is on the leeward side of the other, there is no leeward boat, so there cannot be a windward boat. Rule 11 does not require either boat to keep clear of the other boat. Which means rules 15, 16, and 17 of Section B which limit the actions of a right-of-way boat do not apply.
Rule 14.a: If reasonably possible, a boat shall avoid contact with another boat.
If there is contact Rule 43.1(c) does not apply as neither boat is the right-of-way boat, or one sailing within the room or mark-room to which she is entitled.
The interesting thing is that most people would say that in position 1, Blue is the windward boat, because they are to windward or upwind of White. The italics here are important to distinguish between the RRS defined term and the dictionary defined term. But Blue is not on White's windward side, rather Blue is upwind of White.
Take a look at Match Racing Call B10 for another look at this scenario.
That is usually blue before she bore off or gybed.
She is definitely at risk.
Suppose Blue was clear ahead before she bore off to this course, perhaps because she went around a mark. Yes, they would be on different legs, but probably sailing their proper courses, so no RRS 23.2.
John, The definition is “When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.” As they are both on the leeward side of the other they are both right-of-way and keep clear at the same time
So many different rules for the different discuplines. A problem in excelf.
I recall having heard that there was a proposal to add the last point of certainty rule from match racing to the fleet racing rules but I don't know what became of that. Perhaps the rule writers decided it wasn't needed or might cause confusion.
Click on the link and scroll down
https://www.ussailing.org/competition/rules-officiating/judges/
Suppose White X has rounded a downwind mark, ahead of boat Y while properly following the race course, the the last situation with RoW can be determined as X was sailing clear ahead of Y and had RoW (R12). That may lead to a protest decision where in the situation X2 Y2 when boats meet that X has Right of Way...... based on the last established realtionship before it became "messy"...
Correct? Although it is an awkward situation, but does happen every once in a while....
Col Regs condensed….
Rule 12
The Col Regs state the “vessel”. RRS Rule 11 states “boat”. In the above scenario, there is a boat to windward same tack and a boat to leeward same tack. Tack determined by the definition. Rule 11 takes it to same tack (already defined) and the windward BOAT vs leeward BOAT. I’m sure the rules aren’t meant to be so ambiguous. Legal terms aside, this is ambiguous.
https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/posts/214-what-about-this?forum_id=1
https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/posts/807-how-to-request-us-sailing-or-world-sailing-to-issue-guidance?forum_id=1
Long story short, it comes down to:
Please forgive the focus below on ILCAs/Lasers, but hopefully it's helpful since they're popular boats and often have their best VMG by the lee, making the situation above fairly common, especially at windward marks.
If a ILCA sailing downwind turns into an ILCA sailing upwind, that triggers 16.1. Penalize downwind boat. (That's not in this diagram, but including it here for completeness.)
If a ILCA sailing downwind holds course and contacts an ILCA sailing upwind, penalize downwind boat per 14.a. Speaking as a practitioner (active ILCA racer), not as a judge: to me, "reasonably possible" is the key phrase here. Here's why.
For ILCA going downwind, it's more "reasonably possible" to avoid a collision with another boat. We regularly turn through 20 to 40 degrees in response to waves (whether surfing, avoiding, or sailing through) or puffs or wind shadows. We often do these turns every few seconds downwind, and it's something that a "competent but not expert" (definition of seamanlike) ILCA sailor can do.
Conversely, for an ILCA going upwind, it's less "reasonably possible" to turn to avoid another boat. Tacking isn't an option since it takes too long and your target area, once on port, as seen by the downwind boat, converts from maybe five feet wide (hull plus sailor) to 14 feet wide. So, bearing away is your only option. To do that, you have to dramatically drop the mainsheet, which could be caught around your feet, or the boom can drag in the water if it's heavy wind. Sounds simple to fix, but mistakes happen when you're maxing out your heart rate hiking in a race. So, these problems happen to "competent but not expert" ILCA sailors all the time.
So, it's reasonably possible for an ILCA sailing downwind to avoid another boat. It's much less reasonably possible for an ILCA sailing upwind to do so. For this reason, if I were on a protest committee for ILCAs, I'd put the onus of RRS 14.a compliance on the boat sailing downwind.
In summary: in either situation, turning or holding course, the downwind by the lee boat has to avoid the upwind boat.
Happy to hear from others more trained in the rules on this analysis...
The definition Leeward Windward says "When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat." As neither boat is on the leeward side of the other, there is no leeward boat, so there cannot be a windward boat. Rule 11 does not require either boat to keep clear of the other boat. Which means rules 15, 16, and 17 of Section B which limit the actions of a right-of-way boat do not apply.