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Race Committee & Race Management

Finish line in the course

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Anthony Pelletier
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
  • Club Race Officer
I'm PRO for a catamaran regatta that will include F18s and Hobie 16s. Since the F18s are significantly faster, the sailors want a shorter windward mark for the Hobies--makes sense. 
They also want the possibility of both an upwind or downwind finish. Start line below gate and downwind finish to starboard of signal boat. All good so far. 
The weird part, to me, is that the request the upwind finish to be upwind of the LOWER windward mark, which puts it in the upper third of the longer course. While it's not my favorite, I am OK with it as long as we make the finish line an obstruction that is restricted unless finishing. The regatta chair is pushing back on that. What are your opinions?


Created: Yesterday 21:49

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Andrew Lesslie
Certifications:
  • Judge In Training
  • Club Race Officer
I've run that 'nested' course configuration for club regattas where we have faster and slower fleets.  It works well as long as you have good mark setters.

The request to have the finish between the nearer and farther windward marks is indeed challenging and it would be simpler (and safer) to have it in the lower 1/3 of the course.

An alternative you might consider would be to have everyone sail the same course, but give the F18s three laps while the H16s sail two.
Created: Yesterday 22:04
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
Anthony ... why not a classic diamond with the SL/FL in the middle?  You can still have 2 windward marks to separate the fleets. 
Created: Yesterday 22:26
David Taylor
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
  • Regional Race Officer
At our club we have at least one race each year (because of "the deed of gift") that starts and finishes in the middle of the course:
image.png
image.png 135 KB

So, it's always an upwind start and always an upwind finish.

BTW, the textual version of course seems a little confusing because of the line-breaks, but it is correct.
Created: Today 00:19
Eric Rimkus
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
Why does the finish need to be restricted? What is the concern that you are trying to address?
Created: Yesterday 22:29
Jim Champ
Nationality: United Kingdom
Agreed. My experience of closed finish lines on the course is that they lead to unnecessary DSQs and bad feeling. I think you need a very good reason to introduce one.
Created: Today 04:31
Tom Shenstone
Certifications:
  • Regional Race Officer
  • Club Race Officer
You could lengthen the course at the bottom.  Two leeward marks or gates, appropriately spaced, with common start line and finish line.
Created: Yesterday 22:36
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
I reckon I can learn a lot from some discussion here.

Why do cats want an extra windward leg?
Created: Yesterday 23:18
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Regional Judge
Reply to: 21506 - John Allan
John .. I for one am always Jonesing for an upwind finish (as a competitor). 

We used to have them a lot .. now I can't remember the last time we did one.  IMO they are more fun than DW finishes and in a good size fleet there are last leg opportunities for place changes. 
Created: Yesterday 23:24
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
Reply to: 21506 - John Allan
Angelo, I think the logic, for ordinary boats, not off wind speed machines, is, starting with the classic Olympic Triangle, it is desirable to have at least half the course windward beating, so the default is leeward starting line, windward finish.

UNLESS

You're running back to back races when you don't want fleet repositioning delay, or you don't have a separate finishing line vessel.

So the default actually becomes start/finish to leeward except for the last race of the session.
Created: Yesterday 23:50
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
The weird part, to me, is that the request the upwind finish to be upwind of the LOWER windward mark, which puts it in the upper third of the longer course. 

I'm guessing, but what I think they are trying to achieve is to avoid having the H16s sail a longer windward finishing leg up to the F18 windward mark, while still giving the F18 a beat to the finish for whatever masochistic multihull reason.
Created: Yesterday 23:21
Matt Bounds
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • International Race Officer
  • National Judge
A real problem is that F18s and Hobie 16s sail different angles, both upwind and downwind. F18s have a huge blind spot behind the gennaker.  Closing speeds are high in any significant breeze.

I have never seen a finish line between the two weather marks.

It would be much safer to have the upwind finish above the long weather mark.  The only real reason to have an upwind finish is to put the fleet closer to home on the last race of the day - both fleets would need to sail that direction anyway.  Both these fleets sail upwind just so they can sail downwind again - they generally don't want an extra upwind leg just because.

[Just as an aside, I raced Hobie 16s from 1973 until 2016; F18s from 2004-2012 and have been the Race Officer at both their North American / Canadian / US Championships more times than I can remember. I've raced on this type of course many times - without the finish line between the upwind marks.]


Created: Yesterday 23:25
Dominique Labrosse
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • Club Race Officer
I have run hundreds of races for mixed fleets involving F18s. Downwind finishes for F18s is a bad idea. Very unsafe... you'll have F18s with their kites up (and the associated blind spot) going full speed into an area full of other boats milling about waiting for their next start. Longer windward marks for the F18s (usually at a range of .7-1+ NM) on two-lap races is a staple of our practice. We usually run separate start and finish lines off different sides of the RC boat in the bottom third of the course. Nobody seems to complain about course length or enough windward sailing.
Created: Today 00:02
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Anthony Pelletier
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
  • Club Race Officer
I was most concerned about the upwind. So, I didn't really explain correctly: it's a  dog-leg reach from the gate to a mark set off the starboard bow of the signal boat. 
I've used that a lot for cats. Do you think that creates any problems?
Created: Today 01:43
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Paul Evenden
Nationality: Canada
Certifications:
  • Club Judge
  • National Race Officer
I am with Matt and Dominique on this. the Hobie fleet has a course sticker which give the RC opportunity to change up the courses during the day using both upwind and downwind finishes. Sailors do enjoy the upwind finishes. Upwind marks at least 2/3 of your upwind distance, leeward mark at least 1/3 below RC vessel. Separate WW for F18 and if it's a large fleet, use an offset for them. (safety reasons). If you're worried about boats sailing through the finish line when not finishing, many of us have language for the SI's that cover that off that can be shared. The main reason for making the FL an obstruction is as Dom suggested, you have boats either waiting to start or in a starting sequence in that area and you don't want a fleet charging through there at the same time. Safety! You don't need to dsq, you can give them an out with a turn. 
Another option which I use when feasible, especially if it multiple fleets is a separate finish line away from the starting area. If it's just the two fleets, you're ok with S/F off the RC vessel. 
Created: Today 14:26
Eric Rimkus
Nationality: United States
Certifications:
  • National Race Officer
  • National Judge
But, unless I am misreading the original post, the “restricted finish” in this case is 2/3 of the way up the course and nowhere near the starting area. The only boats playing in that area are the 18s and the H16s would only be there when finishing. So, again, I’ll ask, what issue are we trying to resolve by restricting this finish?
Created: Today 14:53
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2026-06-02 - Jim Champ
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