Note: This forum is not affiliated with World Sailing and comments on this forum do not represent an official interpretation of the rules, definitions, cases or regulations. The only official interpretations are those of World Sailing.
Referring to the diagram:- There is no need to give mark room if the green boat passes hTW from starboard to port just outside the zone, in 3 to 4 boat lengths in front of the red boat, which is on port tack outside the zone? (or possibly in the zone from the red boats' perspective, and they call a protest on green as rule 18.3 is breached.
1. Am I correct in saying that the tack is made and completed as the green boat is on a close haul, although only moving slowly?
2. If the green boat only makes mark room after the tack, then the green boat is clear ahead and the red boat clear behind; therefore, no mark room is given.
3. If the tack is made in the zone (But green is clear ahead after the tack), 18.3 does not apply as it is from starboard to port, and the red boat is fetching the entire time on a port tack. Rule 18.3 does not apply as it's not a Starboard tack?
It's a starboard rounding mark, so RRS 18.3 does not apply at all.
RRS 18 begins to apply from the moment G passes head to wind and comes to be on the same tack as R (Definition Tack, Starboard or Port)
G reaching a close hauled course is irrelevant.
G is only entitled to mark-room if she passed head to wind outside the zone and then was clear ahead of R when G's bow reached the zone, (RRS 18.2(a)(2)).
Otherwise R is entitled to mark-room
If G passed head to wind outside the zone, but was overlapped with R when G's bow reached the zone, RRS 18.2(a)(1) applies.
If G passed head to wind inside the zone, RRS 18 did not apply when she reached the zone and RRS 18.2(a) does not apply. When RRS 18.2(a) does not apply and boats are overlapped [inside the zone], the outside boat shall give the inside boat mark-room, so R is entitled to mark-room ( RRS 18.2(c)).
. I can't tell from the diagram which of those facts apply. It looks like G passed head to wind with her bow inside the zone, so it's RRS 18.2(c).
If there was doubt, then the last point of certainty was that G was not in the zone so it shall be presumed that when she passed head to wind she was not in the zone (RRS 18.2(e)). In that case, we have to conclude whether she was clear ahead of R when she passed head to wind. We apply the principle of last point of certainty again: the last point of certainty, before she passed head to wind was that she was overlapped with R, so again, we presume that at the time she passed head to wind she was overlapped, and therefore required by RRS 18.2(a)(1) to giver R mark-room.
Bottom line: If R validly protests G, G is giving R mark-room and the protest will be dismissed.
If G validly protests R, unless G can convince the protest committee that she passed head to wind outside the zone AND clear ahead of R, again the protest will be dismissed.
Thank you, - You said - "I can't tell from the diagram which of those facts apply. It looks like G passed head to wind with her bow inside the zone, so it's RRS 18.2(c)." - I think this is the case; however, G was close hauled and then in the irons trying to keep clear of the mark herself and R was pushed in the gap from astern. I think 18.2(c) did apply; however, 18.2(d) cancels this out.
If Green passes through head to wind from port to starboard tack before she enters the zone, and at the moment she enters the zone she is clear ahead of Red, then Red must give Green mark-room under 18.2(a)(2), irrespective of when Green completes her tack.
If Green passes through head to wind from port to starboard tack before she enters the zone, but Red gets an inside overlap before Green enters the zone, then Green must give Red mark-room under 18.2(a)(1), again irrespective of when Green completes her tack.
If Green passes through head to wind after she has entered the zone, rule 18.2(a) does not apply as the boats were on opposite tacks on a beat to windward when the first of them reached the zone. In this case neither boat is entitled to mark-room from the other unless and until they are overlapped (rule 18.2(c)). If Red is overlapped inside Green at the moment Green passes through head to wind, Green must immediately give Red mark-room and continue to do so while they remain overlapped (rule 18.2(c)). If the boats are not overlapped at the moment Green passes through head to wind but Red subsequently obtains an inside overlap from clear astern, Green must immediately give Red mark-room (under rule 18.2(c)) unless Green is unable to give Red mark-room from that moment (rule 18.2(d)).
In no case does 18.3 apply as the mark is to be left to starboard, not port (at least, that's what the diagram implies).
John .. I think I understand what u are trying to convey .. but they were not overlapped because they were on opposite tacks on a beat .. so you're asking whether an overlap was created in time .. not broken.
So I think the correct POV for 18.2(e)'s application is Red's ... not Green ... and therefore it would presumed that Red was not overlapped at the zone.
Or am I missing something you are implying but not saying?
The first question is whether G passed head to wind in the zone or outside it. That doesn't refer to overlap so RRS 18.2(e) does not apply and we need to resort just to the last point of certainty principle.
The second question is whether G was clear ahead when she passed head to wind, and again we apply the last point of certainty principle.
Yes, that is what happened, but G had to go into irons to give the mark room and barely made it around herself. G would have hit R if R had been going any slower. G's proper course to fetch the mark would have cut R off. (They avoided breaking RRS 14) G did shout "protest" at that stage, and R felt a right to barge in. As it was club level, no official protest was brought.
The rules are clear on this issue, as others have pointed out. This point of contention hinges (as John A said) on two points:
mostly on if Green passed HTW within the zone or not?
also, to some degree if Green passed HTW outside the zone, then was there an overlap before entering the zone?
The determination of these points would be from the testimony of the two parties, along with any witnesses. If given conflicting opinions on where the tack occurred, then I would closely examining the diagrams, and testimonies, and asking questions about how boats knew they were in/out of the zone.
If I were hearing a protest on this case, and Green gave me this diagram, I would have a hard time finding that Green passed HTW outside the zone. The track that Green takes to tack is relatively sharp through the last 50 degrees, and that boat is asking the PC to believe that after sailing within one boat-width of the zone on starboard, she managed to tack without entering the zone. It's certainly possible, but seems improbable, especially with the difficulty of pinning the exact location of the zone.
Furthermore, as Red is the one sailing to the mark, I think they may in fact have a better sense of where the zone is (assuming they are contending Green tacked in the zone.) Without knowing the answers to my questions, I would be green-flagging this incident.
Upshot: As on the port lay-line, boats approaching a starboard rounding mark would do well to ensure they are either giving space (as this boat does), or tacking well outside the zone to make it clear they don't need to give mark-room.
Anthony, I think you would be better off talking about 'passed head to wind' rather than 'tacked'. I think talking about 'tacked' and attaching the meaning 'reached a close hauled course' may have been what caused you to pose the question in the first place. Likewise it would be better to use the language of the RRS and talk about 'room' rather than 'time' to keep clear.
There are 3 scenarios:
Green passes head to wind before reaching the zone AND clear ahead of Red: Red is required to give Green mark-room (RRS 18.2(a)(2)).
Green passes had to wind before reaching the zone AND NOT clear ahead, i.e. Overlapped [outside] Red: Green is required to give Red mark-room (RRS 18.2(a)(1)).
Green passes head to wind inside the zone: when Red becomes overlapped inside Green Green is required to give Red mark-room (RRS 18.2(c)).
In cases 2 and 3, where Red is entitled to mark-room, if she broke RRS 15 when she became overlapped to leeward of Green, she would be exonerated by RRS 43.1(b).
.. and just to put another voice there .. I do not agree. There is nothing wrong with starboard roundings. What's wrong is that many people do not take the time to understand the rules.
RRS 18 begins to apply from the moment G passes head to wind and comes to be on the same tack as R (Definition Tack, Starboard or Port)
G reaching a close hauled course is irrelevant.
G is only entitled to mark-room if she passed head to wind outside the zone and then was clear ahead of R when G's bow reached the zone, (RRS 18.2(a)(2)).
Otherwise R is entitled to mark-room
I can't tell from the diagram which of those facts apply. It looks like G passed head to wind with her bow inside the zone, so it's RRS 18.2(c).
If there was doubt, then the last point of certainty was that G was not in the zone so it shall be presumed that when she passed head to wind she was not in the zone
(RRS 18.2(e)). In that case, we have to conclude whether she was clear ahead of R when she passed head to wind. We apply the principle of last point of certainty again: the last point of certainty, before she passed head to wind was that she was overlapped with R, so again, we presume that at the time she passed head to wind she was overlapped, and therefore required by RRS 18.2(a)(1) to giver R mark-room.Bottom line: If R validly protests G, G is giving R mark-room and the protest will be dismissed.
If G validly protests R, unless G can convince the protest committee that she passed head to wind outside the zone AND clear ahead of R, again the protest will be dismissed.
How are u using 18.2(e) for inside/outside zone determination, when the rule only refers to overlap/no-overlap determination?
If Green passes through head to wind from port to starboard tack before she enters the zone, and at the moment she enters the zone she is clear ahead of Red, then Red must give Green mark-room under 18.2(a)(2), irrespective of when Green completes her tack.
If Green passes through head to wind from port to starboard tack before she enters the zone, but Red gets an inside overlap before Green enters the zone, then Green must give Red mark-room under 18.2(a)(1), again irrespective of when Green completes her tack.
If Green passes through head to wind after she has entered the zone, rule 18.2(a) does not apply as the boats were on opposite tacks on a beat to windward when the first of them reached the zone. In this case neither boat is entitled to mark-room from the other unless and until they are overlapped (rule 18.2(c)). If Red is overlapped inside Green at the moment Green passes through head to wind, Green must immediately give Red mark-room and continue to do so while they remain overlapped (rule 18.2(c)). If the boats are not overlapped at the moment Green passes through head to wind but Red subsequently obtains an inside overlap from clear astern, Green must immediately give Red mark-room (under rule 18.2(c)) unless Green is unable to give Red mark-room from that moment (rule 18.2(d)).
In no case does 18.3 apply as the mark is to be left to starboard, not port (at least, that's what the diagram implies).
Otherwise, it would just be the last point of certainty principle.
So I think the correct POV for 18.2(e)'s application is Red's ... not Green ... and therefore it would presumed that Red was not overlapped at the zone.
Or am I missing something you are implying but not saying?
The first question is whether G passed head to wind in the zone or outside it. That doesn't refer to overlap so RRS 18.2(e) does not apply and we need to resort just to the last point of certainty principle.
The second question is whether G was clear ahead when she passed head to wind, and again we apply the last point of certainty principle.
If RRS 18.2(c) applies, then G is overlapped outside R and required to give R mark-room.
By the diagram G gives R mark-room (therefore she is able to give mark-room and RRS 18.2(d) does not apply).
No rule broken.
G did shout "protest" at that stage, and R felt a right to barge in.
As it was club level, no official protest was brought.
If I were hearing a protest on this case, and Green gave me this diagram, I would have a hard time finding that Green passed HTW outside the zone. The track that Green takes to tack is relatively sharp through the last 50 degrees, and that boat is asking the PC to believe that after sailing within one boat-width of the zone on starboard, she managed to tack without entering the zone. It's certainly possible, but seems improbable, especially with the difficulty of pinning the exact location of the zone.
Furthermore, as Red is the one sailing to the mark, I think they may in fact have a better sense of where the zone is (assuming they are contending Green tacked in the zone.) Without knowing the answers to my questions, I would be green-flagging this incident.
Upshot: As on the port lay-line, boats approaching a starboard rounding mark would do well to ensure they are either giving space (as this boat does), or tacking well outside the zone to make it clear they don't need to give mark-room.
Thanks, everyone!
As a quick review to make sure I have it right:
Two Senarious:
1. Green passed htw outside the zone. - If this is the case
2. Green tacked inside the zone - Most likely scenario.
I think that's how I have it in my head, and interpreting what you have all been saying. Let me know if I'm wrong or missing something.
Thanks again
There are 3 scenarios:
In cases 2 and 3, where Red is entitled to mark-room, if she broke RRS 15 when she became overlapped to leeward of Green, she would be exonerated by RRS 43.1(b).