Christian, by "changing the position", do you mean

Starting line is a gate (after the signal at least!) So marks on the line until the prep, first mark until the start, but that's pushing it a bit if the drop goes wrong etc, 

Craig - first mark until the start is a preference for some but not a rule.  In big classes, with shifty conditions,  I don't set the top mark until I get a clean start off.

Rule 30.3 and 30.4 need a triangle in the last minute before the starting signal therefore you need a nonmoving mark one. Otherwise boats need a fixed mark 1 when it’s importend for tacktics desiscions. For example in star class you have sometimes a distance from start to M1  over 2 nm. So it‘s up to you as the RO to decide when it’s importend. 

We had this discussion at a NRO seminar about 'trimming up' a gate.

RRS 34 also provides that if a mark is out of position while boats are racing, the race committee shall, if possible ... move it to its correct position ...

I take Andreas' point about Blac Flag and U Flag requiring a mark to be present (?in the water?), but otherwise, if the mark is out of position, say, still aboard a mark vessel, the race committee shall move it to its correct position, obviously, as soon as possible.

This approach relies on the SI telling us what the proper position of the mark is, that is 'windward' etc.

Rule 27.2 refers to a Start Mark.  Once a boat crosses the start line they are on Leg 1.  To more the Windward Mark #1, Rule 33 applies which states, "While boats are racing, the race committee may change a leg of the course that begins at a rounding mark or at a gate by changing the position of the next mark and signalling all boats before they begin the leg".  Since leg 1 has begun (and boats are already racing) as soon as the first boat properly crosses the start line, they can no longer move Mark #1 unless they are signalling a change of course at the time the boats start.  If they are not signalling then they can't change Mark #1 - it needs to be in place.  Or am I missing something?

This all assumes we are in a laid course in one of the usual configurations - trap, w/l etc - but in Keelboat raining a mark boat often leaves the starting area at the same time as the competing boats, to lay a mark many miles away and often not in a straight line, but following a coastline, waterway or river. Hence no rule in RRS as this would often be impractical and of no real use anyway. The RRS cover many and varied situations. 

Peter Reggio (Luigi) once asked at an Advanced Race Management Seminar in 2016, "When does the windward mark need to be set?" The answers from the students ran the gamut from before the prep signal to at the start.

The answer he was looking for was, "When they (the competitors) need it."

I've seen several instances with IROs (looking at you, PVM) having the windward mark visible in close proximity to it's final position, but not set at the start - usually to tweak a target time, not so much a bearing.

The issue with 30.3 and 30.4 ("requiring" a fixed weather mark) is non issue. Given a 0.3 nm starting line and a 1.5 nm first leg, the interior angle of the triangle is 84.3°. Changing the distance has a minimal effect on that (extending to 2.0 nm changes it to 85.7°). Changing the angle has about a 1:1 ratio on the interior angle (using the original dimensions (5° move to one side causes the interior angle to change approximately +5° on one side and -5° on the other).

I always ask myself the "Redress Question." I ask myself, "Is this likely to involve me being in a redress hearing?" If the probability is low, then I'm more inclined to do it.

Truly, the bottom line is what are you trying to accomplish? Hit a specific target time? Have a perfectly square course? It should all relate to the competitor experience - the question to ask yourself is, "Is what I'm doing making the race better for the competitors - and by how much?"  High-risk actions for minimal improvement is rarely a good thing. 

Well now, under rule 33 moving the windward mark while the racers are on the first leg is, I submit, clearly an improper action. However if a competitor wished to claim redress they also have to demonstrate that her score or place in a race or series [was] made, or may be made, significantly worse through no fault of her own. I suggest in many, even most circumstances where even a semi competent race team found a need to move a windward mark they would struggle to demonstrate that.

And I completely agree with Matt's last paragraph.

Craig, the RRS (and WS Cases) are an open rule set.

I don't see where it says you can't.

A competitor's perspective: In the recent ILCA Masters Worlds, a competitor (not me) tacked onto the starboard layline, a few dozen boatlengths from the windward mark. Then they saw the windward mark, a MarkSetBot, start moving to the right. Not a good thing from a fairness perspective, and not allowed under Rule 33.

But, per SI 11.2 (https://onb.ilca.roms.ar/ilca6ilca7masters2025/images/onbdocs/SAILING_INSTRUCTIONS_Amendment_5.pdf) the race committee could change the windward mark position +/- 10 degrees, at any time. This seems like a poorly written sailing instruction, since it opens the door for abuse.

Here's my second try at SI 11.2 -

11.2 – Change of Position of the Windward Mark (Mark 1).

The Race Committee may change the position of Mark 1 by no more than ±10° from its original bearing to maintain a fair first leg when a persistent wind shift of 10° or more has occurred. Any such change must be made and completed before the first boat has sailed more than 25% of the distance to Mark 1, based on the original course bearing. After that point, no further repositioning shall occur, except to replace a missing mark under RRS 34. 

The change shall be signaled by displaying flag C with repetitive sound signals from the Race Committee signal vessel or a designated mark boat stationed along the first leg, and, if possible, broadcast on VHF Channel ???. This changes RRS 33.

For context:
We recently ran the VX One North American Championship using a fully digital race management system. The entire operation — starting sequences, mark movements, course changes, tracking, and finishes — was handled by RaceSense and MarkSetBots, all controlled from a single signal boat. Apart from that, we had just one safety boat and a media boat on the course — and that was the full on-water team.

Jim C re: "That's pretty worrying. I have no experience of robotic marks,"

This same concept came up in the orange-flag discussion. With a drop-mark ... you can see the mark-boat grab it and drag it.   With these mark-bots ... you have no visual indication that they are moving or have moved.  

Sure .... in the rare instance we'd have a mark drag a bit ... but I don't think the RRS and SI templates have kept up with adding required visual cues for setting-or and moving-of mark-bots. 

I think we need some set-signals that we start standardizing on ... be it a windward mark-bot or a starting-pin markbot. 

There are Rule 27 Marks (starting marks) and Rule 33 marks, those marking the end of a leg, including a finish which would also be under Rule 33 unless you shorten the course.  What is implied is that niether rule covers the first mark? That doesn't make any sense. There would be no limit at all in that case as to when you could be movign the mark.  Instead you would be mis-applying Rule 34, for Missing Marks.  To be missing or out of place, it would have been in place in the first place (errors and omissions).  Nothing in the rules obsolves the RC from rules constraining when a mark may be moved. 
As described above, if you wanrt to do something after the start it would have to be addressed in the SIs as is done in the mark bot case.  You could write an SI such that the "windward mark will be placed .7 NM on the average wind axis." Then you have descibed where the mark would be.
See Case 32 - "A competitor is entitled to look exclusively to the notice of race or to written sailing instructions for all details relating to sailing the course"  

John, thank you for taking a second stab at SI 11.2, and for sharing your experience with the VX One North American Championship.

A few comments from an ILCA saillor's perspective:

The Race Committee may change the position of Mark 1 by no more than ±10° from its original bearing >> Seems good, since the marks won't be too out of position. It's often not easy to spot the marks when they're 0.7 or 1.0 miles away.

to maintain a fair first leg >> Good to mention the spirit of the SI.

when a persistent wind shift of 10° or more has occurred. >> I'd leave this out, since the definition of a persistent shift is hazy at best. Case in point: at the ILCA Masters Worlds in Formia, Italy, the wind shifts were stochastic: they would oscillate predictably for a while, and then suddenly shift hard right or left 25 degrees. Then go back to oscillating off this new baseline. It was hard to establish a pattern.

Any such change must be made and completed before the first boat has sailed more than 25% of the distance to Mark 1, based on the original course bearing. >> This is the crux of the question: should it be 0% (i.e., as stated by RRS 33), 25%, or something else. Also, how to reliably measure that distance and determine which boat is first seems hard.

After that point, no further repositioning shall occur, except to replace a missing mark under RRS 34. >> Seems fine.

The change shall be signaled by displaying flag C with repetitive sound signals from the Race Committee signal vessel or a designated mark boat stationed along the first leg, and, if possible, broadcast on VHF Channel ???. This changes RRS 33. >> Seems fine.

I too support fully support Matt's comments. Our job is to give the competitors a safe, challenging racecourse with as much choice as possible. it is really important to be predictable and the competitors to know what you are likely to do and trust you. 

I too use RaceSence and Autonomous Marks a lot and think they are both great. I always post the "Race Management Guidelines" on the ONB where I describe how I will run the racing. If they competitors are required to have VHF I tell them the bearing and distance to Mark 1 just after the prep signal. If using boards I will post it after displaying the Orange flag if I have a big fleet and by the Warning Signal if a small fleet so they have time to see it. I don't lay marks until the start in deep water. If there is a big wind shift before the start I AP and change the boards/radio.
The SI I use use is:
9.2 The autonomous marks will go back to their original positions if they

are dragged or otherwise moved off station. Routine movement of autonomous marks will not be

grounds for redress. This includes minor readjustments and marks returning to station after

having been pushed or dragged away by a competitor. RRS 31 continues to apply.

I have had a couple of problems with RaceSense in the past. 
1. I had boats who suddenly "went dark" 10 seconds before the start and went live again 10 seconds afterwards. Some were judged OCS by the line officers. I was told by other competitors that they put a bag over the device in their boat, probably a faraday cage. 
2. I had boats that consistently "stuck out" on the start line by a couple of meters at the start but did not go dark nor showed as OCS although the Line Officer called them OCS (but the SIs say we can not score them OCS). The other competitors told me that they have two vakaros devices, they put the one registered with the Race Committee in the helm's pocket, and have an unregistered one on the mast fitting. 
3. I had problems a couple of years ago with boats being called OCS by RaceSense when the Line Officers said they were significantly behind the line. Checking their Vakaros device, it was set up as a TP52, not an RS21!! RaceSense now allows the race officer to set the type of boat for all competitors and make it unchangeable. I have not had that problem since. 

Interestingly at the 2025 RS21 Worlds where we had 49 boats, over half professional sailors, (where I used those guidelines) we had no discrepancies between the line officers and the RaceSense on either the start or the finish. 

I don't understand from a geometric/fairness perspective why an RC would look to change the course after an early-leg shift. I think this would only serve to exacerbate and/or set in stone the advantage gained by those who got to that shift first:

If you leave the mark as-is, there's some chance for "redemption" whereas if you move it, you've locked those gains in for the "winners" of the first shift.

That's all in addition to the chance for confusion from moving and signalling. The test of skill is to go around the mark as set. If it's totally unfair, moving the mark won't make it more fair, and has a chance to make it less fair. Restart the race if it's not a good test of skill, and adjust the next leg instead.

Niko ... I agree.  The windward mark should not be altered in direction after the prep signal or after its direction is posted.    Boats should be able to rely upon its heading from the startling line to determine their tactics and strategy. 

There is nothing in the rules that says when the rounding marks need to be set unlike the start mark(s). Waiting until after the boats have started is perfectly acceptable.  Depending on how the course is signaled is where it needs to be set.  That part of the equation is not changeable.  


This is what I use for change of course after the start:

The position of the marks may be adjusted slightly for small shifts in the mean wind (+/-5 degrees) without signaling a change of course. Any adjustments will be made before the first boat is on the leg to the adjusted mark. This changes RRS 33.

Niko .. yea ... maybe that is what's she's saying .. it's just confused by her into-sentence describing this is what she does after the start.  I can read it both ways. 

How does this sit with Race Management Policies 12.1(a)

With a persistent wind shift of 10° or less the course will not be changed unless necessary to
adjust for current or to provide a true downwind leg.

I phrased it wrong.  I was not changing the course when setting the first mark after the start. I was having it set in the position that the course board says it is.   Just waiting to set it until I got a clean start off.  Where I am there in shifty conditions and fair bit of current and deep water that is makes more sense to wait rather than possibly have your mark boat folks picking up and putting down anchors.  Why wear the people out when you don't need to.  

As for the 5 degree change if no one is on that leg, It's just tweeking the course.  It is done infrequently when needed and I haven't had anyone complain.  Again with current and shifts this tends to square a course a bit.   

What rule does this conflict with?

I think the whole point of Race Management Policies s12 is to discourage race committees from being too 'precious' about small shifts.  Here's the guidance

12, Change in wind direction:
(a) With a persistent wind shift of 10° or less the course will not be changed unless necessary to adjust for current or to provide a true downwind leg.
(b) Between 10° and 15° consideration will be given to adjusting the course to the new wind provided that the race committee is confident that the shift is likely to persist.
(c) With a persistent wind shift of more than 15°, the race committee will attempt to change the course to the new wind

Note that the WS Race Management Policies are intended to apply at WS Championship and Olympic events.  I would suggest at lower level events the criteria should be quite significantly increased.

What s12(a) is saying is that unless there is a persistent wind shift of more than 10 degrees, leave the course alone.

Far from 'encouraging race committees to be more active', the guidance is intended to encourage them not to dither around.

I suggest that a 4 degree change is unnecessary.

In my opinion, switching off the requirements of RRS 33 is a bad idea,  race committees should accept the guidance in the Race Management Policies and put themselves to the discipline involved in RRS 33.