Forum: Protest Committee & Hearing Procedures

Is There a Case in the Future for A Less-Formal Meditation Process

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John Quirk
Nationality: New Zealand
Just putting it out there, in a ‘blue sky’ manner: is there any sort of a case to be had at some juncture in the future to offer an expeditious Mediation process  - by mutual agreement between the parties but be non-binding (?); especially considering that in some parts of the world where sailing events are now held, there is, due to social & cultural sensitivities etc, sometimes a reluctance for parties to come forward and to engage in the formal Protest / Hearings or Arbitration processes (I have experienced it myself, with the protest committee sitting around ‘twiddling their thumbs’ so to speak, waiting for protests to be raised – that are certainly ‘out there’, but not raised) . 

There would perhaps need to be exclusions of course in such a Mediation process (e.g. RRS 2, 44.1b and 69 incidents).

The members of the protest committee could act in that capacity - perhaps, jointly alongside the PRO, in a collaborative manner with the parties. Give their considered opinion, strictly within the RRS, on fault and remedy (penalty) and the parties are then free to accept this or otherwise. 

If thought to have merit, I would be happy to support (within my obvious limits as just an IJ-IT, but considerable experience in other international sectors), along with another or others from this forum, the development, drafting and issuance of a ‘white paper’ to World Sailing on the future initiative (?). 

Created: Wed 14:00

Comments

Format:
Michael Balay
Nationality: United States
The formality of hearings reflects procedural requirements that protect the competitors. 
We always want the competitors to enforce the rules on themselves before coming to the room. Coming into the room means there is either a fundamental disagreement about the facts or a fundamental disagreement about the rules, and sometimes both. 
If there were some sort of mediation with a non-binding opinion rendered by an official, there is a danger that you could taint any subsequent hearing by allowing parties to rehearse their whole cases and by effectively giving at least one party arguments from an official, presumably a member of the PC, to cite to the rest of the PC before they are allowed to ask their questions. I am assuming here that an entire panel is not involved, because if they are, what is the point? 
Logistically, I am not sure how such a process could fit within the normal Protest Time Limits, and the last thing we would want to do, in the interest of efficiency, is to add even more delays top the existing process.
We are better off improving education about the process, being visible at the skippers meeting and walking the docks, and then making our hearing and decisions as expeditious and predictable as possible. If competitors know we will be predictably fast and fair, a lot of the reluctance to the room will dissipate.
Created: Wed 15:28
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Reply to: 19944 - Michael Balay
I assumed John was wondering about the possibility of a more complete examination of the incident with more feedback that Appendix T (T3) allows
If you do this, you're immediately going to lose the time benefits of Appendix T Arbitration, and possibly forego the rigour of the procedural protections and safeguards in the Part 5 protest process.
Created: Yesterday 01:04
Craig Evans
Surely this is why we can have arbitration in part 2 protests?
Created: Wed 16:11
Michael Balay
Nationality: United States
I assumed John was wondering about the possibility of a more complete examination of the incident with more feedback that Appendix T (T3) allows, or where Appendix T is not specified in race documents.  
Created: Wed 16:19
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
 There already exist ways of addressing rules disputes 'less formally'

RYA Advisory Meeting

https://www.rya.org.uk/racing/rules/rya-rules-disputes-process/

There are problems:

By providing an 'official' venue to rake over incidents but without protest validity or 'official finality', you are actually encouraging a 'no protest' culture, and where the Advisory Meeting 'concludes' that a boat had dead set broken a rule, you then run into possible ill will if the boat doesn't then take a PRP or retire, and possible Rule 2 complaints about knowing that she has broken a rule and not taking a penalty.

I obviously don't like the idea.  In my opinion it is dumbing down the sport, and it erodes the responsibility of competitors to enforce the rules.
Created: Wed 23:12
Capt Tribhuwan Jaiswal
Nationality: India
I think Arbitration in the present form gives an informal platform to the competitor to understand or realise that a breach of rule was made by him / her and gives an opportunity to exonerate by taking the postrace penalty. 
The process is kind of optional for the protestor (decide not to withdraw the protest) thus allowing the formal proceedings to kick in for enforcement of rules by the PC because the participants are not willing to resolve the issue (for reasons of believing they are in the right or otherwise).
Created: Thu 02:03
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John Quirk
Nationality: New Zealand
All comments so far: thanks for the great comments so far, and once other comments perhaps come in,  I will provide a more indepth and balanced reply as best I can in due course (ie merits or otherwise of a new RRS 'Appendix U'). Obviously there are significant 'pros and cons' with a  [classic] Mediation format (as there are with both Arbitration (our 'Appendix T' - no witnesses permitted) and litigating through the Courts - in our case 'the full Hearing' process). I only have indepth experience in all three forms strictly related to my own profession (execution of major international engineeried-construction projects). Yes, RYA (I am a Member also) does have an 'Advisory Meeting' format but this is quite a bit different from Mediation (well, as it is generally practised in various industry sectors and applications anyway). 

Created: Thu 02:08
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Roger Wilson
Hi. For the last 5 years I have been appointed as a "Rules Adviser" to a number of offshore and other events in both the Middle East and Far East. In that role I am available for competitors to discuss issues with both personally and by email and the event messaging system and through questions on RRS before, during and after events. I usually act as Arbitrator under Appendix T and Chair the Protest Committee. We change Appendix T to allow it to be used for all protests and also to vary the voluntary penalty unless there is a fixed penalty in the rule. 

The competitors seem to like it; all the events I officiate at have grown substantially in the last 4 years with many new to racing taking part and I keep being invited back. The culture in both places is that "Face" is extremely important and being disqualified often means the competitor will give up sailing. 

As an official the "general enquiries" are easy to manage. My basic message at briefings is that Competitors need to protest at the time and complete a hearing request form asap to give us the chance to sort out problems. Without that all I can do is discuss situations in general. 

As to Arbitration I start by talking to the protestor, then the protestee to see if there their stories are similar. If they are not I go straight to a full hearing as we will need to call witnesses. If the stories are basically the same I call an arbitration hearing and see if I can get the parties to agree on the key facts found. If appropriate I will say that, in my opinion, one party has infringed a rule and if it goes to a full hearing they will probably be penalised. Usually they will take a post race penalty and that is the end of it. If the situation is not clear cat it goes to a full hearing. I am always on the panel so they can't change their stories, but at least we have 3 people to listen and ask questions and agree the facts found.

Competitors and race officials report that rule observance has greatly improved over the years and, as I said earlier, the events are growing with more people happy to take part who have rarely raced before.

To me it works well in the situations I am using it for but `I am very conscious that I have to be careful what I say both when consulted during an event and  in the arbitration hearing as it is easy for the arbitration hearing to be used as a "learning what to say in the full hearing" exercise. I don't think we need another system. What we have works well.
Created: Fri 11:41
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Roger can you share your NOR/SI's that change
 Appx T with the forum?
Created: Fri 12:19
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John Quirk
Nationality: New Zealand
Thank you very much Roger and this is extremely informative and expecially how you yourself actually approach it all (in fact, other than the 'no witnesses allowed' facet, is somewhat akin to Mediation in other industry sectors - Arbitration thereof is typically done through a Head of an Institute of Arbitratiors and is quite a strict legal process within itself). Yes, the reason I raised the subject (and other than I have not myself seen Appendix T being applied) was, as you say, the "Face" aspect and sailors shying away etc from a full hearing process, and also the cost / budget considerations for the Organisers, raised by others to me. In that case and operation, agree with you that Appendix T as it stands should then well suffice - albeit, and pardon my ignorance, do you know what is the rational of the express RRS provision that an Arbitrator cannot call a witness or witnesses?
Created: Fri 12:24
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
John Q re: no witnesses

Part of the answer is in the preamble.

"Arbitration adds an extra step to the protest resolution process but can eliminate the need for some protest hearings, thus speeding up the process for events in which many protests are expected."

The stated benefit of Appx T is that one might be able to handle some simple cases in the time period that they are awaiting an avail PC panel.  So .. they are waiting anyway and maybe their case can be resolved "while they wait". 

Only 1 red-flag recorded by the RC and only 1 protest filed .. is maybe another reason to go straight to a full hearing (after offering the parties the option). 
Created: Fri 13:10
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Reply to: 19956 - Roger Wilson
do you know what is the rational of the express RRS provision that an Arbitrator cannot call a witness or witnesses?
Arbitration or Mediation has been kicking around sailing for quite a long time.  I wouldn't claim to read the minds of the numerous drafters of sailing arbitration rules from past years, but here are a couple of reasons for not calling witnesses in an Arbitration Meeting:
  1. Simplicity and brevity.  Arbitration must not take more than 10 to 15 minutes (and this is a guard against risky complexity)
  2. By restricting the arbitrator's knowledge to only the description of the incident from each party, so that, it is clear that the arbitrator may not have complete information about the incident it reduces the chance that the arbitrator, when sitting on the protest committee in a full hearing, can be accused of being prejudiced by his or her former opinion in the arbitration meeting.  Th  response to such an allegation can be that the arbitrator's opinion was based on the incomplete evidence of the parties in the arbitration meeting, the arbitrato  has always kept an open mind, an  in the light of further evidence in the full hearing and deliberations with the other protest committee members, and fuller and fairer decision can now be made.
Created: Yesterday 01:51
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Roger re: "see if there their stories are similar. If they are not I go straight to a full hearing"

That is such good advice to anyone who is inexperienced being the Arbitrator under Appx T!

Our process already has a bad rep for being too time consuming. The worst thing you can do as an Arbitrator is use a system that is intended to create time-efficiencies and turn it into a time-doubling exercise.  

Not all incidents lend themselves to Appx T.  Some quick-close and head-to-hearing indicators (that are worth it to establish quickly) ...

  • RRS 44.1(b) elements 
  • More than 2 boats
  • Significant validity-fact disagreements (witness needed?)
  • Significant basic scenario-fact disagreements (witness needed?)
  • Only 1 protest filed and PC panel(s) is/are immediately avail.  
  • Others??

Created: Fri 12:35
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Roger Wilson
50
Tips
Angelo,

I completely agree with you that Appendix T is best used in events where there are always a lot of hearing requests, especially if there is a mix of inexperienced and experienced sailors where you can often resolve a lot of hearing requests very quickly so saving everyone a lot of time. I also completely agree with you on your "quick-list" of :send straight to full hearings".

The example I gave in my submission is where a judge is working alone with no other suitable PC members available in the venue and the internet too poor to allow you to use video conferencing. If you have to go to a full hearing you have to arrange for the other PC members to come to a venue probably the next day if not in several days (where you are involved in a series of races moving along a coast or up a narrow Straite, stopping at a different venue every 2-3 days, some of which can be very small islands with very poor facilities. I try to sort out what I can asap. (Yes it would be good to have a full PC or IJ available at each venue, but the cost is prohibitive).

The NoR clauses I use are:
1.       APPENDIX T (Arbitration)
RRS Appendix T (Arbitration) will apply except that Appendix T1 and T2 are changed so that arbitration may be applied for breaches of other rules.

2         PENALTIES FOR INFRINGEMENTS OF OTHER RULES 
Penalties for infringements of rules other than those specified in the rule itself may be less than disqualification. Details of discretionary penalties will be published on the official Notice Board before the race. 

SIs:
1. RRS T1(b) is changed to: The post-race penalty for each infringement shall be determined by the arbitrator, however rule 44.1(a) applies.
Created: Fri 18:12
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Reply to: 19959 - Angelo Guarino
Roger re: "see if there their stories are similar. If they are not I go straight to a full hearing" That is such good advice to anyone who is inexperienced being the Arbitrator under Appx T!
I have to respectfully disagree.

I used to use a SI that said 'Arbitration in accordance with Appendix T may  be used ...'

I was persuaded to stop using that discretionary language by an IJ reviewing a championship SI and by an appeal for denying a boat the opportunity to take a Post Race Penalty (PRP) in arbitration.

It is not fair to provide arbitration for some incidents and not for others except when, before arbitration,  the arbitrator decides that arbitration is not appropriate (RRS T2).

An arbitration meeting provides parties with the following benefits, which i suggest should be regded, wherever possible, as entitlements:
  • the benefit of hearing the other party's description of the incident, and
  • the benefit of the arbitrators opinion
  • the opportunity to be reminded about the ability to take a PRP.

It is true that the benefit of the arbitrator's opinion may be lost if the arbitrator, in the hearing, decides that arbitration is not appropriate, which will typically be because of conflicting evidence from the parties, or complexity of the incident (again, typically multiple boats/rules), but even without the arbitrator's opinion, having heard the other party's description of the incident, and being reminded about PRP may help a party to decide to take a penalty.

I agree with Angelo that, where a protest form discloses multiple boats or complex rules interactions (as well as rules breaches outside the scope of arbitration, that is not Part 2/RRS 31), arbitration will not be appropriate and, in accordance with RRS T2, an arbitration meeting should not be held.

I do not agree, and in fact I think it is quite improper for an arbitrator to take evidence from or to question each party separately before an arbitration meeting.  This creates risks that:
  • the arbitrator will form unconscious prejudice,
  • the arbitrator will decide that arbitration is not appropriate because of conflicting evidence from the parties without the parties having heard each other's stories.
  • It wastes time by having each party tell their story twice:  once to the arbitrator before the meeting and again in the arbitration meeting itself.

I also used to think that arbitration didn't save time.  My experience has taught me differently.  A protest committee can rarely complete a full hearing in under half an hour.  I apply a 10 minute rule to an arbitration meeting:  if I can't reach conclusions and fom an arbitrator's opinion within 10 minutes, arbitration is not appropriate, and i will close the meeting and go to a hearing.

Even for a singular club protest, arbitrating at the  door of the hearing room, if i can finalise a protest and release the parties (and the waiting protest committee members) in 15 minutes, instead of a full hearing:
  • that gets the benefit of a party feeling good and sportsmanlike from taking a PRP instead of 'losing ' a protest and 'being disqualified'.
  • saves everyone time.
As soon as you get to a bigger regatta with numerous protests the time benefits increase.

If, say for a club race, where a protest committee  has not been assembled, prompt arbitration, if successful, may avoid the need for a full hearing, but having a full protest committee available is not a reason to not use arbitration and deny parties the benefits.
Created: Yesterday 00:18
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Reply to: 19959 - Angelo Guarino
The example I gave in my submission is where a judge is working alone with no other suitable PC members available
Don't we say that all that is necessary for a protest committee is three fair minded sailors and a rule book?

I sometimes think that experienced judges (and RO), when invited to help at events, should be a bit more hard nosed, and say to OA 'I'm happy to come along, but you need to find a some local sailors to come on the protest/race committee to gain experience (and would you like me to run a judges/RO seminar while I'm there?)'
Created: Yesterday 02:08
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Reply to: 19959 - Angelo Guarino
2         PENALTIES FOR INFRINGEMENTS OF OTHER RULES  Penalties for infringements of rules other than those specified in the rule itself may be less than disqualification. Details of discretionary penalties will be published on the official Notice Bo...
If you can publish details of penalties shouldn't they be SP?
Created: Yesterday 02:26
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Reply to: 19959 - Angelo Guarino
1.       APPENDIX T (Arbitration) RRS Appendix T (Arbitration) will apply except that Appendix T1 and T2 are changed so that arbitration may be applied for breaches of other rules.
I'm not keen on this.

You're attempting to apply the simple arbitration process, with fairly strict limits on its appropriateness, as we've  just discussed (2 boat, boat on boat, few rules, little conflicting evidence, little scope for interpreting/misinterpreting rules) to rules disputes that are inherently more difficult and complex.

You're then twisting the parties' arms:  accept my opinion or else wait days until I get a protest committee together.

You're inviting parties to make a PRP/withdraw decision that is much more complex than for a Part 2 breach.

And if they accept your opinion they have lost their right of appeal.

If you think you absolutely have to act one out, then i would suggest the better course would be to call a protest hearing with a committee of 1.  That way you can take all the evidence, and you preserve the parties right of appeal.
Created: Yesterday 04:44
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
John A re: "I was persuaded to stop using that discretionary language by an IJ reviewing a championship SI and by an appeal for denying a boat the opportunity to take a Post Race Penalty (PRP) in arbitration."

That's a good point to highlight that aspect of T2's text: (emphasis added)

"An arbitration meeting will be held prior to a protest hearing for each incident resulting in a protest by a boat ... "
Created: Yesterday 13:32
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John Quirk
Nationality: New Zealand
Once again, thank you everyone for your gracious contributions and informative critical inputs (and I for one have gained a much fuller understanding of RRS Appendix T Arbitration and its operation).

I think that what I shall do now in my spare time, over the course of the coming Sailing Season 3 here, is to: tabulate all of the salient comments from all contributors hereto , and attempt to develop a full internal ‘mock-up’ of an Appendix U – Mediation (verbiage & diagrammatic fashion) -  just to keep it ‘clean’ from Appendix T (leaning also into other industry sectors – research what exactly has been done on it in the sailing world), and progressively discuss it with our Chief Judge here (and other IJs as they come here) – if at the end of that internal review cycle we feel that it ‘has some legs’ I will recycle it back into this forum (or just put it into the ‘round filing bin’ 😊).

Finally, I must say that in my professional working life, I was always been more one to ‘go straight to Court’, unless a particular construction contract stipulated Arbitration or a client demanded Mediation. Also, from my vantage point, the two sailing seasons with the protest committee here have gone very well and efficiently indeed, under the high leadership and expertise of our Chief Judge.

As such, I am certainly no ‘champion’ of Mediation but am keeping an open mind , thinking ‘out of the box’, and do my impartial best, as has been suggested to me. For sure there is quite some observable cultural discomfort with ‘the Room’ (which could take generations to change to otherwise) in developing nation countries like here and also budgets are sparser too – I have also spoken and promoted to several smaller yacht clubs about coming onboard with World Sailing / RRS, but they say the overall costs are too great. Hence, perhaps it’s not a matter of ‘one size fits all’, and alternatives could also be offered for the future growth of sailing around the world accordingly.

Created: Yesterday 09:04
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Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 19982 - John Quirk
John Q: "Appx U" is already taken for 'Audible-Signal Racing System". 

Please share what you come up with.  Update us here and you can also post the text in the "Share your language ..." forum .. so people can find it more easily. 
Created: Yesterday 13:15
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John Quirk
Nationality: New Zealand
Thanks Angelo...next avaiable alphabet letter then - just an internal 'mock-up'. Most certainly, will share - if it passes muster with our Chiff Judge here :)
Created: Yesterday 13:23
David Taylor
Nationality: Australia
Reply to: 19984 - John Quirk
I can almost hear New Z'land accent in the "Chiff Judge" comment.
Created: Today 01:00
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John Quirk
Nationality: New Zealand
:) its a funny thing David, I left NZ when I was 24 y/o and lived, worked in over 30 different countries since and yet still have the same NZ accent :)
Created: Today 01:58
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