Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Redress for an unavoidable collision in which no rule is broken

Lars Rosenblad
Nationality: United States
In the World Sailing Q & A 2023.003, there is the following situation:

Situation
Two kiteboards were sailing downwind on the same tack, in a breeze of 10 -15 knots.
Kiteboard B was clear astern of and on the same line with kiteboard A, with a distance of 10 metres between them.
Kiteboard A’s foil ran across an invisible nylon sheet suspended underwater and suddenly dropped off the foil, but with her kite not touching water. The rider remained attached to the board but did not have steerage way. One second later, kiteboard B collided with kiteboard A and there was damage.

The Q & A answers the question of whether the kiteboard B (astern) broke rule 14: no she did not.

But I have two other questions:

1. Did kiteboard A break any rules?  I don't think she did, given that the situation as described was through no fault of her own.
2. Is kiteboard B entitled to redress?  If the answer to question 1 is no, then there is no provision in 61.4 to grant redress to kiteboard B, and B would not be eligible for redress.
3. Who is liable for the damage?  I think the answer is that RRS and the jury cannot adjudicate this.

If kiteboard B is not entitled to redress because of the limitations of 61.4, it seems a little unfortunate but consistent with the written rule.

Created: Tue 19:05

Comments

Format:
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Michael Butterfield
This is not really my area of expertise but under appendix f 22.2 does a board recovering have to keep clear of one that not.
A kiteboard is recovering from the time she looses steerage way until she retains it. Unless she is capsized. She is not capsized as her kite was not in the water and her lines were not tangled.
Looks Iike a therefore at fault.
Created: Tue 20:03
Lars Rosenblad
Nationality: United States
I agree that the definition of capsize supports this limitation, but I am not sure that was the intent.  In this scenario, I can not see how the kite that crashed can keep clear of the kite behind her since she does not have steerage way.  I think that F 22.2 was intended to penalize a kite that is moving across the course and causing disruptions to other racing, rather one that is stationary and waiting for a good opportunity to get going again. And in this case, kiteboard A was the right-of-way vessel, being clear ahead.
Created: Tue 21:00
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Michael Butterfield
This breach is a part 2 breach so it is probable the redress rule applies is the constraints in the rule are met, retirement or penalisation, and the damage.
Created: Tue 20:09
Thomas Armstrong
I think Lars is correct that the interpretation given for the described scenario are "unfortunate but consistent with the written rule." The unfortunate part is that the obstacle was underwater and impossible to see. The consistent part is that the chasing rider must keep a safe distance to prevent any dangerous situations!

Let me illustrate a slightly different but similar situation: two small dinghies sailing at maybe 5kts. The one clear ahead suddenyl sailing slower as result of dragging some seaweed. The one chasing has no ROW so it must steer around the one in front...  If there is contact we would all agree the one clear astern is at fault - that sailor should have kept more distance in order to be able to react in time to any problem the one in front has...

So, in the case of kitefoling, where speeds are much higher, and the "rig" is much bigger (20m lines!), riders should keep even more distance to be able to react in time and avoid contact with a ROW rider in front. So yes, B is at fault and should not have any redress given.

BTW, I've always found that the limitations of 61.4 are too restrictive. I would like to read a discussion on how these restrictions were defined...  but this is another issue altogether...


Created: Tue 22:28
Lars Rosenblad
Nationality: United States
The conclusion of the WS Q & A was that the following kite did not break 14 because "It was not reasonably possible for kiteboard B to avoid contact with kiteboard A, given the distance between them, the wind conditions, and the speed at which they were sailing."  I can see your point, but I was starting with WS interpretation as a baseline.

I should talk to a kiter because something similar should have happened on a course somewhere because they crash pretty often.
Created: Tue 23:34
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Lars,  The RRS, particularly the right-of-way rules don't focus on 'fault', 'blame', or 'cause'.  They merely look at physical circumstances and outcomes.  Remember the RRS are just rules of a game, applicable to determine places in races.

There is a significant difference between RRS 14 Avoiding Contact and the right-of-way rules (RRS 10, 11, 12, 13, and 21.

RRS 14 has the opening condition 'If reasonably possible ...'.  The right-of-way rules do not have that condition.  They are absolute.
Created: Tue 22:50
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Thomas:   riders should keep even more distance to be able to react in time and avoid contact with a ROW rider in front. So yes, B is at fault and should not have any redress given.

I don't think this is correct.

Once you have found that A, while recovering, broke RRS F22.2 and that it was not reasonably possible for B to avoid contact, and that B broke no rule, I don't see how you can say that B was at fault.
Created: Wed 00:05
Thomas Armstrong
Reply to: 17969 - John Allan
while
How is this different from a dinghy case?  Lets say two ILCA's, sailing at 5kts and with only one meter space between A's stern and B's bow...  suddenly A hits some weeds and slows to 1kts, and as a results B hits A. Is this not the same?  Or the same?
Created: Wed 20:14
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Reply to: 17969 - John Allan
Thomas, How is this different from a dinghy case?

The difference is the effect of RRS F22.2.

For kites, the instant A loses steerage way, she becomes the give-way boat and B becomes the right-of-way boat.  In fleet racing, the right of way doesn't change.

See also  Case 30.

In that case, there was no abrupt change in speed, so that in the instant before right-of-way changed by A's gybe, B was so close to A's transom that she was not already keeping clear. 
Created: Wed 22:03
Lars Rosenblad
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 17969 - John Allan
Case 30 is similar, but the main difference is that the following boat caused the change in right-of-way and is not exonorated by RRS 15.  In the kite case, my practical concern is that A cannot control how close B is following them.  If that is the case, then effectively A is not allowed to crash if B is following them too close; that doesn't seem right to me.  In RRS 15, the boat acquiring right-of-way must initially give the other boat room to keep clear, unless right-of-way is acquired by the other boat's actions.  In this case, kite B acquires right-of-way when kite A crashes.  But did kite A take an action?  I also find it a little disturbing that F22.2 states that a boat without steerage way must keep clear of a boat with steerage way, but once she has steerage (and therefore the possibility of taking positive action to keep clear), she is no longer required to do so.  This is what makes me think that some nuance may have been intended in F22.2 but did not make it to the text.
Created: Wed 22:28
‫Shlomo Goldstein
A was ROW one sec after become KC.B was KC and in one 2nd after become ROW By the "action" of A. threre was damage. why B is not intitale for aredrees? 10 meter separation is common seamans like in Kite. Yes you are right that it dosn't look nice aspisialy when we are looking for rule 22. But the definition of CAPSIZED  was not fulfiled and A become recovering.And the defintion of Recovering obled A to KC. What happed if is 10 Meter from the Mark? is it change something or not? 
Created: Wed 07:11
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John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Lars said ' kite B acquires right-of-way when kite A crashes.  But did kite A take an action?'
Shlomo said '[B] become ROW By the "action" of A'

What was the 'action' of A?

AFAICS there was no action by A.

If there wasn't, then B has failed, iniitally to give A room to keep clear and has broken RRS 15.

Consider MR Call B18, where there is a clearly identifiable action by Yellow, in releasing her sail, but the Call says 'an increase or decrease in speed is not in itself an action within the meaning of RRS 15.
Created: Today 01:48
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