Forum: The Racing Rules of Sailing

Team scoring under a fleet racing format

Matthew Blake
Nationality: United States
Does anyone have an example of language for the NOR/SIs governing fleet racing but provides for team scoring (e.g., 12-boat fleet, with four 3 boat teams) without conflicting with case 78 by somehow preventing "team racing tactics" from being used?  It seems that if the NOR/SI just introduces a "team scoring" provision, that would then permit many aspects of "team racing tactics" to be used to improve the team's overall score (now fairly(?) under Rule 2), unless there is language included that would somehow discourage these team tactics.  Or is rule 41 enough as it is?  Or is team scoring in fleet racing just something to be avoided?
Created: Tue 04:14

Comments

Format:
Ant Davey
Nationality: United Kingdom
I would suggest looking at the NORs forthe RORC Commodores' Cup and Admiral's Cup.
Created: Tue 07:31
Gordon Davies
Nationality: Ireland
Reply to: 20416 - Ant Davey
I believe that in these events there are 2 fleets and team members do not sail in the same fleet.
Created: Tue 12:31
Matthew Blake
Nationality: United States
Reply to: 20416 - Ant Davey
For Admiral's Cup, at least in the old days as far as I remember, the teams were made up of boats in different classes with different starts, so teammates were not in the same race.  Also, they were not the same type of boats, were not similar boat speed, etc., making team racing tactics not as practical.  I suspect the team racing implications inherent with team scoring did not arise.

In this case that I postulate, teammates are in the same race, with the same type of boat.  So, that presents conditions that enable a boat on one team to maneuver to impede another boat on a different team in a way that makes her fleet position worse, but improves her team's overall position.  Would this tactic be fair under rule 2, or does case 78 (under fleet racing rules) define this tactic as unfair even though it helps her team's score?
Created: Tue 12:50
P
John Allan
Nationality: Australia
Reply to: 20416 - Ant Davey
So, that presents conditions that enable a boat on one team to maneuver to impede another boat on a different team in a way that makes her fleet position worse, but improves her team's overall position.  Would this tactic be fair under rule 2, or doe...
Well, of course Case 78 prohibits 'team racing', as long as you're just 'fleet racing'.

But I think Gordon's line of argument in post ID: 20419 is pretty cogent:  Case 78 does NOT expressly forbid 'team racing' when the Event includes a Teams competition unless you write a NOR/SI that says so.

Something like:

The Team Racing Rules (RRS Appendix C) shall not apply.  The term 'final ranking' in Case 78 shall be taken not to include the ranking of a team to which a boat belongs.

Note Giff Constable's suggestion in Post ID 20417 that you need to specify exactly how the Team Scores will be calculated:  You don't want someone scurrying off the TR scoring method.
Created: Yesterday 04:56
Giff Constable
Nationality: United States
50
Tips
Personally, I don’t think you have to do anything since you are not invoking the team racing rules. Just because you score in groups doesn’t mean team racing is invoked. However, I do like being sailor-friendly and part of that is clear, overt communication, so I might lead off the scoring section of the NOR with something like::
X.1. While the regatta will be run under fleet racing rules, scores will be calculated based on the cumulative low-point scores of all boats in their assigned team etc etc
Created: Tue 11:45
Gordon Davies
Nationality: Ireland
First question: why do you want to prevent 'team racing tactics?

I am not convinced that Case 78 prevents 'team racing'. A boat may use tactics that clearly interfere with and hinder another boat's progress if there is a reasonable chance of her tactics benefiting her final ranking in the event. However, her final ranking in the event is based on the  accumulated result of her team. Any tactic that clearly interferes with and hinders the progress of a boat in another team that has a reasonable chance of benefiting the final ranking of her team does not break rule 2.

Four teams racing at the same time would be interesting, to say the least. It may well generate a large number of protests, unless umpires are appointed.
Created: Tue 12:45
Niko Kotsatos
Nationality: United States
To answer Gordon's question:
  1. if teams-racing tactics are not explicitly encouraged or discouraged, it would be very frustrating for many sailors (especially those not used to the cutthroat nature of teams racing) to feel this out during the event
  2. teams racing tends to cause more contact between boats
  3. teams racing tends to lead to more protests when not umpired

That is to say, I agree with you Gordon, and I also think Mr. Blake is right to try to avoid these issues unless he is prepared for them.
Created: Tue 14:49
P
Angelo Guarino
Forum Moderator
Nationality: United States
Gordon re: "It may well generate a large number of protests,"

Looks like a job-security SI :-)
Created: Tue 22:05
P
John D. Farris
Nationality: United States
In the Gulf Yachting Association, our Offshore Challenge Cup is explicitly a club-versus-club competition. Teams consist of either three or four boats, with club results determined by the best three boats in each race.

To avoid ambiguity, our Notice of Race spells this out clearly. The relevant scoring language is below (emphasis added):

24 SCORING
24.1 Places will be determined by handicap correction per NOR 9 (ORR-Ez). Scoring for all classes will be according to the Low Point System of Appendix A, with no races excluded.

24.2 A yacht club’s points for a race shall be the sum of the scores of the best three boats of that club in that race. The yacht club with the lowest total points for all races wins.

24.3 Ties for overall class standings will be broken using Appendix A8. If a tie on corrected time occurs in the last race, the same procedure will be applied to the next-to-last race, and so on until the tie is broken.

24.4 Ties for overall club standings will be broken in favor of the club with the most firsts, seconds, etc., using the club’s best three boats in each race. If a tie still exists, it will be resolved in favor of the club that scored better in the last race in the fastest-rated class in which both clubs had boats entered and scored differently, whether or not those scores counted toward the club total. This changes Appendix A8.

24.5 The long-distance race scores shall be multiplied by 1.5, changing RRS A4.
Created: Tue 12:52
Matthew Blake
Nationality: United States
The scoring is intended to be **both** individual and team scoring.  It is fleet racing with a team scoring component.
My questions (which Gordon Davies has addressed... are there alternate views?):
  • Is this situation handled adequately by the (fleet racing) rules as they are?
  • Would "team racing tactics" now be permissible under this format?
  • Does there need to be additional language in the NOR/SI to prevent team racing tactics and hopefully prevent protests?  What would that language look like? 
  • Or, is this team scoring format not recommended for fleet racing?

Created: Tue 13:14
Jim Champ
Nationality: United Kingdom
I've done events like this. Because there are multiple teams it tends to be the case that while one might be able to sail one opposing team down, all the others will benefit so its normally better to just finish as well as possible. I don't recall ever sailing boat v boat rule changes made for such an event, and doubt it would be needed.
Created: Tue 13:25
Giff Constable
Nationality: United States
50
Tips
FWIW I think Gordon puts his finger on the heart of the matter. Case 78 puts forward scenario "(a) The protest committee finds that there was a reasonable chance that A’s tactics would benefit her final ranking in the event." and then says "Answer: In circumstance (a), A would be in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play."

In other words, I don't think you have to worry.
Created: Tue 13:30
Niko Kotsatos
Nationality: United States
Coming from a viewpoint of someone who LOVES teams racing, I would discourage you from running this format. Even if you don't get straight-up teams-racing tactics, you may get subtle items like choosing which boat to tack on, or other edge cases.

That said, if you're going to run the regatta in that way, I would suggest some combo of the following which could discourage outright teams-racing tactics (mark traps, etc.)
  • choose longer courses with fewer mark roundings such that fewer boat-to-boat interactions are happening naturally
  • give a trophy for top team, but not a ranking... maybe eliminates Case 78 Q1a as a defense?
  • explicitly remind teams in the NOR of RRS 41 and that teams racing is not allowed (such that people like me won't be overly intrigued)
  • have judges on the water who may monitor if there is teams-racing occurring
  • increase the total number of teams and boats such that teams racing becomes overly complex
  • race in an A/B format instead of all at the same time
  • consider a team award for most participants, or biggest donation to a charity, or something else instead (I know this is a junk suggestion, just trying to cover all the options)

I have dreamed for many years of what teams racing would look like in a 3-boat, multi-team format, and it already happens frequently in eSailing, so I do think there's a real risk this could be happen... definitely take steps to avoid that if you don't want it.
Created: Tue 14:45
Matthew Blake
Nationality: United States
I want to thank everyone for the comments and suggestions.  For anyone faced with a similar situation, please note John Allan's reply (buried in the middle of the thread) with suggested SI language for this format that hopefully will minimize competitor confusion regarding the meaning and applicability of case 78, RRS 2, and RRS 41 in this format. 
Created: Yesterday 16:06
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